Can’t wait to find out how this upgrade enhances my dishwasher’s performance.
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@someone_else @dan Both my cousin and sister have a Bosch series 4 dishwasher. Cousin's is 2-3 years old, and has no WiFi connectivity, sister's is about half a year old, has WiFi, and requires you to use the app to use some features that are available through buttons on the older model, because it's so much easier to put the dishes in, find the phone, unlock it, run the app, wait for it to load, scroll down to the dishwasher, tap it, then select the program instead of pressing 2-5 buttons.
And, what a surprise, that app can display adverts, track your location, watch your network and WiFi connections, take pictures and record audio. Because of course it can. How could you possibly set the dishwasher without all those juicy permissions?
https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.bosch.sh.ui.android/latest/#permissions
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And, what a surprise, that app can display adverts, track your location, watch your network and WiFi connections, take pictures and record audio. Because of course it can. How could you possibly set the dishwasher without all those juicy permissions?
https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.bosch.sh.ui.android/latest/#permissions
@CppGuy @jernej__s @dan
And why does it do that?Because the Display on the Dishwasher can't... (show ads, track your location, or record audio...)
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@flyIng @someone_else @dan Ich hatte mal eine interessante Unterhaltung mit einem Geschäftsführer einer IoT-Firma. Und der hasste das I in IoT und fand das nur einen gigantischen Hack darum, dass man die Device-2-Device-Kommunikation nicht standardisiert hinkriegt. Stattdessen redet das Thermostat mit dem Rechenzentrum, die Heizung mit dem Rechenzentrum und die Integration wird dort gebastelt und gefixt.
@skade @flyIng @someone_else @dan war nicht ZigBee mal für sowas gedacht? Bevor es "praktischer" wurde, das einfach "in der Cloud" zu machen?
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@skade @flyIng @someone_else @dan war nicht ZigBee mal für sowas gedacht? Bevor es "praktischer" wurde, das einfach "in der Cloud" zu machen?
Ich könnte noch Matter und Thread in den ring werfen...
PS.: All diese Lösungen sind noch da und funktionieren.
Die Frage ist also: warum wollen Hersteller UND Konsumenten das nicht unterstützen?(Teile dieser Antwort würden die Öffentlichkeit verunsichern)
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@skade @flyIng @someone_else @dan war nicht ZigBee mal für sowas gedacht? Bevor es "praktischer" wurde, das einfach "in der Cloud" zu machen?
@amberage @flyIng @someone_else @dan "Dafür gedacht" und "problemfrei" ist halt was anderes. Nur weil der Standard existiert, heisst das nicht, das die Vendoren gut integrieren, was mit "hingekriegt" gemeint ist.
Wenn deine Zigbee-Verbindung zwischen Device A und B, eventuell von Vendor X und Y im Hotelzimmer nicht geht, brauchst du irgendeine Art von Remote Hands. Wenn die mit vendor cloud X und Y reden, dann fixt man halt die Verbindung dort. Das ist auch alles handgeklöppelt und wenn in der Cloud was kaputt ist, hat das auch Auswirkungen, aber das deployment ist schnell.
So ist man (unter anderem) da gelandet. Aber wie gesagt: die Frustration war dem Typen ins Gesicht geschrieben, weil das halt ein harter Miss und ein bequemer Weg ist.
Natürlich spielt da mit rein, das jeder gehofft hat, dass sich das löst weil _sie_ die IoT-Platform der Zukunft sind, aber das fügt sich einfach nur in die Gemengenlage mit ein.
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@someone_else @amberage @flyIng @dan
> (Teile dieser Antwort würden die Öffentlichkeit verunsichern)
Auf der Ebene diskutier ich nicht.
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Can’t wait to find out how this upgrade enhances my dishwasher’s performance.
At least it’s not adding new AI features, I guess…
@dan now I'm wondering if we have the same model or if that update targeted multiple devices
(And I need to find out where they hide the changelog, I did see one in the past!) -
@someone_else @amberage @flyIng @dan
> (Teile dieser Antwort würden die Öffentlichkeit verunsichern)
Auf der Ebene diskutier ich nicht.
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@dan
- "My dishwasher is on the internet!"
- "Why is on the internet?"
- "To download software updates!"
- "Why does it need software updates?"
- "To fix security vulnerabilities!"
- "Why would it have security vulnerabilities?"
- "Because it's on the internet!" -
@dan
- "My dishwasher is on the internet!"
- "Why is on the internet?"
- "To download software updates!"
- "Why does it need software updates?"
- "To fix security vulnerabilities!"
- "Why would it have security vulnerabilities?"
- "Because it's on the internet!"@someone_else @dan This is why my 14 year old “smart” TV has never tasted the open internet. I did download a firmware update to a USB stick to fix an MP4 playback issue about a year after I bought it, but that’s it.
My printer is on its own WiFi network that doesn’t have any external connection because I don’t trust HP’s firmware after there were some RCE’s in other products.
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Vernetzte Systeme sind ja ganz nett - wenn es darum geht den Spüler dann laufen zu lassen, wenn Energie verfügbar ist.
Allerdings benötigt das Teil dafür eigentlich keinen "Internet" Zugang sondern nur eine Schnittstelle, die sich sicher gestalten lässt.
Seufz. DIese AI-isierung und zwanghafte Vernetzung übers www von Haushaltsgeräten ist echt die Pest.Eigentlich musst du dafür nur die Netzspannung messen.
Dummes beispiel:
250V => Jetzt laufen.
200V => Jetzt NICHT laufen. -
@dan
- "My dishwasher is on the internet!"
- "Why is on the internet?"
- "To download software updates!"
- "Why does it need software updates?"
- "To fix security vulnerabilities!"
- "Why would it have security vulnerabilities?"
- "Because it's on the internet!"@dan@discuss.systems @someone_else@infosec.exchange
and I hate it -
@someone_else @dan Both my cousin and sister have a Bosch series 4 dishwasher. Cousin's is 2-3 years old, and has no WiFi connectivity, sister's is about half a year old, has WiFi, and requires you to use the app to use some features that are available through buttons on the older model, because it's so much easier to put the dishes in, find the phone, unlock it, run the app, wait for it to load, scroll down to the dishwasher, tap it, then select the program instead of pressing 2-5 buttons.
@jernej__s @someone_else @dan Wrong attitude. If you're being modern then your phone is always in your hand, all 842 apps that you might need are always running, it's remembering where you put the dishwasher that's the hard bit.
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@dan
- "My dishwasher is on the internet!"
- "Why is on the internet?"
- "To download software updates!"
- "Why does it need software updates?"
- "To fix security vulnerabilities!"
- "Why would it have security vulnerabilities?"
- "Because it's on the internet!"@someone_else @dan I think the primary reason my vacuum cleaner has bluetooth is exactly to update its bluetooth firmware.
(It also has an app that can notify you when the container is full. But the container is TRANSPARENT and it's also RIGHT THERE next to the handle you're holding it with, so you could also, you know, LOOK AT IT to know if it's full?)
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Can’t wait to find out how this upgrade enhances my dishwasher’s performance.
At least it’s not adding new AI features, I guess…
@dan I cut my Bosch off the Wi-Fi, guess what, it still works
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Can’t wait to find out how this upgrade enhances my dishwasher’s performance.
At least it’s not adding new AI features, I guess…
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@aiuto @someone_else @dan LOL your dishwasher will enjoy that
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@dan
- "My dishwasher is on the internet!"
- "Why is on the internet?"
- "To download software updates!"
- "Why does it need software updates?"
- "To fix security vulnerabilities!"
- "Why would it have security vulnerabilities?"
- "Because it's on the internet!"@someone_else @dan I just got a new dishwasher. Certain (not often used, thank goodness) cleaning cycles are only available via "the app". I made a conscious decision to forego access to these so I would not need to put the thing on the network. But it's very annoying that this tradeoff even needed to be considered. Bosch 800 series, in case anyone cares.
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@dan
- "My dishwasher is on the internet!"
- "Why is on the internet?"
- "To download software updates!"
- "Why does it need software updates?"
- "To fix security vulnerabilities!"
- "Why would it have security vulnerabilities?"
- "Because it's on the internet!"Home appliances are on the internet as part of a planned obsolescence scheme.
They can be bricked remotely to force consumers to buy new appliances.
They are also vulnerable to being hijacked for botnet mischief, surveillance, and kill switches
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@GrahamDowns @someone_else @dan Be realistic. When are you actually micromanaging that stuff so precisely? I'd wager, never. Instead, you have an automation set up somewhere that does this automatically for you.
There is no actual technical reason why that "somewhere" would have to be in the "cloud". It should be in your own home, on your own local network, under your control. And if you really do want to check in on anything from outside, use a VPN to connect to your home network.@Silberwoelfin @GrahamDowns @someone_else @dan I micro my crappy dishwasher and washer daily because eclectricity is substantially cheaper starting 23:00 and its honestly a pita to stay awake till 23:00 everyday I have to turn one of these on.
I sure wish they had Bluetooth or somecrap but I agree I rather have nothing then cloud somethibg compared to local.
