Some things are harder to teach than others.
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@futurebird @va2lam @Anke @bucknam yeah I was def taught with a knot, and later learned to end that way, but never thought to start that way too
Great to know, and great visual
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OK I've tried to draw it.
Do not overthink the details of these diagrams. Consider the difference between using a knot to hold the thread vs. using friction.
Friction is often a better, more robust solution. There are many ways to start sewing. Just overlap your stitches, back-stitch a few times until you feel it will not slide out.
@futurebird @Anke @va2lam @bucknam I mean, knots are just friction made small, right?
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OK I've tried to draw it.
Do not overthink the details of these diagrams. Consider the difference between using a knot to hold the thread vs. using friction.
Friction is often a better, more robust solution. There are many ways to start sewing. Just overlap your stitches, back-stitch a few times until you feel it will not slide out.
@futurebird @Anke @va2lam @bucknam Why not both?
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@futurebird
yeah makes sense, I just mean that this knowledge of how to start or stop sewing using friction is more likely to be taught today in terms of a machine. the idea extends easily to hand sewing, but probably your students dont know machine sewing either.
@Anke @va2lam @bucknam -
@futurebird
I think I kinda had to figure it out sometime last millennium, but it's been a while. I borrowed a machine for something, so needed a better solution and it transferred.This century I'd probably look it up online.
All I ever needed was a running stich with a few backstitches to start, or just a backstitch, anyway.
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OK I've tried to draw it.
Do not overthink the details of these diagrams. Consider the difference between using a knot to hold the thread vs. using friction.
Friction is often a better, more robust solution. There are many ways to start sewing. Just overlap your stitches, back-stitch a few times until you feel it will not slide out.
@futurebird@sauropods.win @Anke@social.scribblers.club @va2lam@mastodon.nz @bucknam@mastodon.social should've seen this post a few hours ago when i was mending my sweater
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Some things are harder to teach than others. One of the most difficult things to explain is "how to start sewing without putting a knot at the end of the thread."
Like many tasks that I stumble over when teaching I made the fatal mistake of thinking "this is easy"
I think I need to draw diagrams?
What makes it worse is it's not that important when you are sewing a book signature how you "knot the thread" since it will be covered in glue later.
My students want an "Official Procedure"
@futurebird
Having similar struggles.
Show & tell: Diagrams help person showing their idea to transmit it visually so observer can build their own mental models.
I saw your explaining diagram before the words & it totally “made sense” as I had lived experience of “end of string knot failure” mode compared to relying on earth friction physics-https://sauropods.win/@futurebird/115950780276008456
Had I seen the words first, I’d have interpreted them drawing my own imaginary diagram, that would not likely going to match yours. -
@futurebird I'd love to learn that. @va2lam @bucknam
@AnnaBaguenaude @va2lam @bucknam
I made a diagram:
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@futurebird
Having similar struggles.
Show & tell: Diagrams help person showing their idea to transmit it visually so observer can build their own mental models.
I saw your explaining diagram before the words & it totally “made sense” as I had lived experience of “end of string knot failure” mode compared to relying on earth friction physics-https://sauropods.win/@futurebird/115950780276008456
Had I seen the words first, I’d have interpreted them drawing my own imaginary diagram, that would not likely going to match yours.I thought making a diagram was "overkill" but I can see that it's not.
Lets see if this helps them to be more independent about this part of the project.
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OK I've tried to draw it.
Do not overthink the details of these diagrams. Consider the difference between using a knot to hold the thread vs. using friction.
Friction is often a better, more robust solution. There are many ways to start sewing. Just overlap your stitches, back-stitch a few times until you feel it will not slide out.
@futurebird bookmarking this diagram for the future. Very helpful, thanks!
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I think this dynamic of people learning a task wanting formal official steps leads to people thinking that there is "One Right Way" to do tasks that can be done in many ways.
A frustrated teacher formalizes something that just isn't formal to avoid having everyone bugging her over and over "but how do I start it? how do I knot it?"
Will I cause someone in 20 years to be told "That's the Wrong Way to do it."
hmmm
@futurebird
OMG! I was discussing this “one right way” or “where is the template?” Linear thinking, simplistic, “100% certainty” approach.
A(ny old) way - tends to be the first solution people come up with in solving a problem. Then they stop looking.
The (most suitable) way - is the optimum way to address a need or problem and requires critical thinking/effort/patience/determination/tenacity/perseverance/grit/adaptability. -
Some things are harder to teach than others. One of the most difficult things to explain is "how to start sewing without putting a knot at the end of the thread."
Like many tasks that I stumble over when teaching I made the fatal mistake of thinking "this is easy"
I think I need to draw diagrams?
What makes it worse is it's not that important when you are sewing a book signature how you "knot the thread" since it will be covered in glue later.
My students want an "Official Procedure"
Does it become "official" when coded in hardware?
I still have the tin, but (k)not the machine, from my dad's automatic knotter.
He was a textile mechanic and this was in common use in the spinning and weaving sheds.
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@futurebird thank you, it's perfect! I'll try it soon. @va2lam @bucknam
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OK I've tried to draw it.
Do not overthink the details of these diagrams. Consider the difference between using a knot to hold the thread vs. using friction.
Friction is often a better, more robust solution. There are many ways to start sewing. Just overlap your stitches, back-stitch a few times until you feel it will not slide out.
@futurebird @Anke @va2lam @bucknam
When I was four, I learned both methods, but the second was much easier if I started with the first. The knot helped hold the thread in place for the first few stitches. When you are just learning, it’s very easy to accidentally pull the thread through when you go back, the knot stops that happening.
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@futurebird @va2lam @bucknam
My grandmother taught me how to weave in ends on the back of the work when doing embroidery, but no-one ever taught me to sew. Wishing I had known to ask now.@Anke @futurebird @va2lam @bucknam nothing stopping you from starting now. sometime last year i started getting into fixing the fabric things around the house and it takes time but isn't very intimidating
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I thought making a diagram was "overkill" but I can see that it's not.
Lets see if this helps them to be more independent about this part of the project.
It’s not just kids. I’ve seen grown adults, paid a salary to come up with solutions to problems, also asking,
- “keep it simple and tell me the “one right answer”!
- “Give me the answer and don’t make me work for it”.
- “I don’t want to make an(y) effort. Give me the answer”.It is a kind of “cognitive abdication”, “don’t make me think” or learned/programmed helplessness.
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@futurebird @Anke @va2lam @bucknam
When I was four, I learned both methods, but the second was much easier if I started with the first. The knot helped hold the thread in place for the first few stitches. When you are just learning, it’s very easy to accidentally pull the thread through when you go back, the knot stops that happening.
@david_chisnall @Anke @va2lam @bucknam
This makes sense, though if that knot is taking a lot of tension because the person learning to sew is pulling too hard it's going to cause further problems. Learning to manage the tension is a big part of sewing. So the thread is taught... but not pulling on the fabric or paper much.
It's one of the reasons I like sewing books with them. Too much tension will tear the paper. Instant feedback.
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It’s not just kids. I’ve seen grown adults, paid a salary to come up with solutions to problems, also asking,
- “keep it simple and tell me the “one right answer”!
- “Give me the answer and don’t make me work for it”.
- “I don’t want to make an(y) effort. Give me the answer”.It is a kind of “cognitive abdication”, “don’t make me think” or learned/programmed helplessness.
I will help someone who is overwhelmed if we are just trying to get a task done. But when I'm teaching?
Well I'm not teaching anything if students don't confront this.
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OK I've tried to draw it.
Do not overthink the details of these diagrams. Consider the difference between using a knot to hold the thread vs. using friction.
Friction is often a better, more robust solution. There are many ways to start sewing. Just overlap your stitches, back-stitch a few times until you feel it will not slide out.
@futurebird @Anke @va2lam @bucknam
So lovely.
Sewing is an alien art for me, I envy you. I won't start now, but I see this as a wonderful Taoist case study!
Let the material decide how it wants to be treated. The knot is my external will, clumsily imposed on the thread; the friction loop is the inner nature of the thread, gracefully doing what it does, skillfully aligned with my needs.
I love the drawing too!
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@david_chisnall @Anke @va2lam @bucknam
This makes sense, though if that knot is taking a lot of tension because the person learning to sew is pulling too hard it's going to cause further problems. Learning to manage the tension is a big part of sewing. So the thread is taught... but not pulling on the fabric or paper much.
It's one of the reasons I like sewing books with them. Too much tension will tear the paper. Instant feedback.
My grannie taught me sewing, knitting and embroidery.
Yet here I am, learning more, 63 years later.
