What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
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@malte @Slacker @Kancept On the one hand:
You deserve to be appreciated when offering help to a 'noob', & their frustration does not make it okay for them to be rude. You don't need to put up with abuse.
On the other hand:
"I won't help you b/c you were too frustrated by your problem to adhere to my expectations, & I did not have the patience to tolerate incivility which I knew was not directed at me" doesn't seem like a viable solution.
Thoughts?
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@brouhaha @Linux_in_a_Bit
"Saying RTFM in a smug and condescending way benefits no one."True. I was raised in the Old Culture, in which it was a Mortal Sin to ask a question if the answer could conceivably be found in any existing documentation. Greybeards, some of whom had written that documentation, used this belief to dismiss newcomers. Some, like Ulrich Drepper and Linus Torvalds, used it to abuse others as supplemental pay. RTFM will be tough to get past.
@drdirtbag @brouhaha @Linux_in_a_Bit 100%
I feel like there should be a series of infographics on "How to actually help & encourage new Linux users" that includes "phrases & responses to avoid at all times".
Lots of well-meaning but poorly-equipped (& rarely trained) tech support, out there.
🧑
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit
exactly. And also in Cases, wäre it is not even a mistake. When asking 'how can I solve $minor_Detail_issue in $programm ?'
the most common reply will be ' $programm is shit, use $oldbutgold_terminalsolution-i-tried-before for that!' -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
Yep. This is why my linux laptop is sitting in its box. You ask a question and get either snark or are inundated with techno-gobbledegook with is unintelligible to people who've only used windows for decades.
If I can't run my client's preferred software on it or get some kind of windows emulator to actually work, it's useless.
So far no help has actually been helpful.
And external hardware like pen tablets etc needs to be plug & play.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit Wonderful. Exactly. I have been on Linux for almost 20 years and still things happen and I do not understand the "simple" instructions that honestly are in a language that I never learned. When I was in school we saw the "computer" in a room with a controlled environment and we learned to mark punch cards. I enjoy my little laptop - lets me into the Mastodon club! - but if something stops?? Sadly the "help" even from people who want to be helpful is often still beyond my understanding. Fortunately Linux (Ubuntu now Debian) is really well done. Hardly ever have any issues.
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@drdirtbag @Linux_in_a_Bit
Saying RTFM is perhaps reasonable when coherent, well organized documentation exists. That was true of some commercial operating systems, and even arguably BSD. When I first started using BSD, in 1984, I had a printed set of manuals that was fairly good. Documentation for Windows, MacOS, and Linux is far less complete, coherent, or organized, so a new user, told RTFM, can not really be expected to find useful information.
(Also, enshittification of search results.) -
@_RyekDarkener_ Justify using something made by theft and draining our resources because people that use a product are not willing to tell you how to do things, unpaid...
Quite a few of us are very willing to teach people how to use linux, but we are not techsupport ready to fix a problem, like most seem to want.
@Linux_in_a_BitYou have misunderstood the essential point. Support forums are necessary and highly valued. Support forums share their knowledge and generally provide assistance free of charge on a voluntary basis. Using these gifts for LLMs is – as long as this kind of support is also free – no stealing imho.
However a compensation for fair use is in order. And should be requested. Then there is a win-win situation.
AI doesn’t steal. People do. -
@_RyekDarkener_ Justify using something made by theft and draining our resources because people that use a product are not willing to tell you how to do things, unpaid...
Quite a few of us are very willing to teach people how to use linux, but we are not techsupport ready to fix a problem, like most seem to want.
@Linux_in_a_Bit@lettosprey @RyekDarkener@mastodon.social @Linux_in_a_Bit See, the problem with that and:
People get upset and frustrated because they have to invest a little time in figuring out how things work differently, and get mad because they don't get the answer in a "follow these simple step" fashioned, served instantly.
...is that Windows has this and the average Linux user drastically over-estimates the computer knowledge of the average user of literally anything else.
If I have an issue, I can Google it and quickly find step-by-step instructions I don't have to understand to execute. I mean I personally will, but the average person thinks turning your monitor off is turning your computer off, like heck will they take anything away from it.
You have to understand just how fundamentally, irreparably Microsoft has currently fucked Windows 11 for that kind of person to think Linux might be a better idea. That is "triangular wheels on your car" bad. In comparison, "square wheels and the mechanic screams at you" is better.
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@malte @Slacker @Kancept On the one hand:
You deserve to be appreciated when offering help to a 'noob', & their frustration does not make it okay for them to be rude. You don't need to put up with abuse.
On the other hand:
"I won't help you b/c you were too frustrated by your problem to adhere to my expectations, & I did not have the patience to tolerate incivility which I knew was not directed at me" doesn't seem like a viable solution.
Thoughts?
@Kancept @GoodNewsGreyShoes idk. to me it sounds like @Slacker is annoyed by people who get excited, which is a bit of a dick move. let people be excited, and work on your own ability to let people be excited
️ -
You have misunderstood the essential point. Support forums are necessary and highly valued. Support forums share their knowledge and generally provide assistance free of charge on a voluntary basis. Using these gifts for LLMs is – as long as this kind of support is also free – no stealing imho.
However a compensation for fair use is in order. And should be requested. Then there is a win-win situation.
AI doesn’t steal. People do.@_RyekDarkener_ using material without permission is stealing. People built AI by strealing other peoples work.
@Linux_in_a_Bit -
@lettosprey @RyekDarkener@mastodon.social @Linux_in_a_Bit See, the problem with that and:
People get upset and frustrated because they have to invest a little time in figuring out how things work differently, and get mad because they don't get the answer in a "follow these simple step" fashioned, served instantly.
...is that Windows has this and the average Linux user drastically over-estimates the computer knowledge of the average user of literally anything else.
If I have an issue, I can Google it and quickly find step-by-step instructions I don't have to understand to execute. I mean I personally will, but the average person thinks turning your monitor off is turning your computer off, like heck will they take anything away from it.
You have to understand just how fundamentally, irreparably Microsoft has currently fucked Windows 11 for that kind of person to think Linux might be a better idea. That is "triangular wheels on your car" bad. In comparison, "square wheels and the mechanic screams at you" is better.
@bluestarultor I am installing Linux on my moms computer because Windows is just too messed up now to be acceptable, I think i know how crappy it has gotten.
The "easy to use" linux distros are, for "regular user tasks" a lot easier than Windows now, simply because there isn't all sorta crap getting in the way.
But, we are in a situation where people can be using a computer (including smartphone) for hours and hours a day and still have no idea how stuff really works. People hardly understand what a file and a folder is, because tech companies has "simplified this" away. Of course Linux is complex then.
But Linux users cannot be expected to suddenly make everything so easy that you don't need to learn basic computer skills in order to use your computer.
It is a fact that terrifies me, computers are more and more central in our life, but we learn less and less about them. Instead, we outsource the knowledge to big-tech.
People are not stupid, they just cat be bothered.
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@bluestarultor I am installing Linux on my moms computer because Windows is just too messed up now to be acceptable, I think i know how crappy it has gotten.
The "easy to use" linux distros are, for "regular user tasks" a lot easier than Windows now, simply because there isn't all sorta crap getting in the way.
But, we are in a situation where people can be using a computer (including smartphone) for hours and hours a day and still have no idea how stuff really works. People hardly understand what a file and a folder is, because tech companies has "simplified this" away. Of course Linux is complex then.
But Linux users cannot be expected to suddenly make everything so easy that you don't need to learn basic computer skills in order to use your computer.
It is a fact that terrifies me, computers are more and more central in our life, but we learn less and less about them. Instead, we outsource the knowledge to big-tech.
People are not stupid, they just cat be bothered.
@lettosprey I am a child of the DOS era. I was also part of the small window when schools taught computer use. You are talking to the wrong person about knowing how to use a computer. :J
Welcome to 1994. The average person has never understood how their devices worked. Because prior to those things being "simplified away," computers were... *drum roll* limited to enthusiasts, specialists, or designated operators.
Like, by your logic, everyone should know how a car works. We use them every day. But the only one in my family who ever did was my grandpa, who cut his teeth on the Model A, and they later passed him by. We have mechanics now.
That's all people are asking for: a mechanic when things are broken. The same way they want a farmer for their food, or a doctor for their sick kid, because all of these things are simply too big for the average person to bear the load of. It's not stupidity, it's being overwhelmed.
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@Kancept @GoodNewsGreyShoes idk. to me it sounds like @Slacker is annoyed by people who get excited, which is a bit of a dick move. let people be excited, and work on your own ability to let people be excited
️@malte @Kancept @Slacker I fully agree:
"New users shouldn't assume they can easily optimize this operating system that's lauded for its optimizability & being more user-friendly than it's ever been" is unrealistic.
New users aren't going to stop wanting the nice things that Veteran users keep bragging about as reasons they prefer Linux.
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@lettosprey I am a child of the DOS era. I was also part of the small window when schools taught computer use. You are talking to the wrong person about knowing how to use a computer. :J
Welcome to 1994. The average person has never understood how their devices worked. Because prior to those things being "simplified away," computers were... *drum roll* limited to enthusiasts, specialists, or designated operators.
Like, by your logic, everyone should know how a car works. We use them every day. But the only one in my family who ever did was my grandpa, who cut his teeth on the Model A, and they later passed him by. We have mechanics now.
That's all people are asking for: a mechanic when things are broken. The same way they want a farmer for their food, or a doctor for their sick kid, because all of these things are simply too big for the average person to bear the load of. It's not stupidity, it's being overwhelmed.
@bluestarultor Before I was allowed to drive a car, I needed to take theoretical course over several weeks, pass two tests, and have hours of practical training.
What was your point, exactly?
I am not saying that average computer users should know how to write software and do devops stuff, but some fundamental knowledge of how the OS works is kinda essential.
I am too old to have had computers as part of school, and now, I have to explain to people half my age that grew up with computers as part of their day and used in their education, rather simple computer stuff.
Is it really too much to expect, that a part of education is to understand some fundamental part of something that is so important for us today.
Because the alternative is to let big tech run all over us.
But that is more convenient, so this is where we at. "By your logic", well, yes, so we are not setting ourself up to be exploited.
But, it is not my job, as a linux user, to do this for free, as seem to be expected.
@Linux_in_a_Bit -
@nieuemma Most people don't, and to justify not switching, they make up stuff like "linux users are too angry and their answers are too geeky so unless they get friendlier, I am not switching!", but it mostly boils down to not wanting to switch and just needing a reason to keep justify using big tech products.
Like people who make an effort to avoid it should be there to do the job for them, for free.
@Linux_in_a_Bit@lettosprey @Linux_in_a_Bit I will agree that a lot of people don't want to switch, or aren't willing to put in the effort, but there are also a fair number of shitty Linux users.
When I used to use Discord, I was on a few servers to get and give help with issues people had related to Linux and there were a number of people there (both old and new to Linux) who really weren't helpful and were assholes.
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@lettosprey @Linux_in_a_Bit I will agree that a lot of people don't want to switch, or aren't willing to put in the effort, but there are also a fair number of shitty Linux users.
When I used to use Discord, I was on a few servers to get and give help with issues people had related to Linux and there were a number of people there (both old and new to Linux) who really weren't helpful and were assholes.
@nieuemma I was in a Polestar owners group, grief those people were shitty, I don't expect all owners to be like that.
I tried to join some Linux chat groups, but left, I have lots of Linux knowledge, but unless I could dedicated all my effort to Linux, those groups were pointless.
You find the same with most all groups. To judge a user base from this seems meaningless...
I have voiced my frustration with Windows and audio drivers on some forums and was told that I was a stupid person that should just stop using computers.
@Linux_in_a_Bit -
@bluestarultor Before I was allowed to drive a car, I needed to take theoretical course over several weeks, pass two tests, and have hours of practical training.
What was your point, exactly?
I am not saying that average computer users should know how to write software and do devops stuff, but some fundamental knowledge of how the OS works is kinda essential.
I am too old to have had computers as part of school, and now, I have to explain to people half my age that grew up with computers as part of their day and used in their education, rather simple computer stuff.
Is it really too much to expect, that a part of education is to understand some fundamental part of something that is so important for us today.
Because the alternative is to let big tech run all over us.
But that is more convenient, so this is where we at. "By your logic", well, yes, so we are not setting ourself up to be exploited.
But, it is not my job, as a linux user, to do this for free, as seem to be expected.
@Linux_in_a_Bit@lettosprey @Linux_in_a_Bit You have a fundamental misunderstanding. Devops is building. Nobody is asking the average driver to build a car. They are asking them to drive it.
But when it breaks and can't be driven, that's fixing it.
Building, driving, and fixing are three different things.
If an OS is a car, then people can drive it all day long without knowing anything beyond how to manipulate the steering wheel, pedals, shift, and, ideally, turn signal. Maintenance means filling up the gas and other fluids. Most people don't do more than the gas themselves.
People get trained to use an OS the same way.
You're saying every driver should also be a mechanic.
And no, it's NOT your job to do it for free. But Microsoft does it for pay. And people are willing to pay.
What people are NOT willing to do is go to what looks like a mechanic and be handed a manual and told RTFM.
Someone has to do the work. It doesn't have to be you, but it does have to be someone.
That's what this thread is about.
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@lettosprey @Linux_in_a_Bit You have a fundamental misunderstanding. Devops is building. Nobody is asking the average driver to build a car. They are asking them to drive it.
But when it breaks and can't be driven, that's fixing it.
Building, driving, and fixing are three different things.
If an OS is a car, then people can drive it all day long without knowing anything beyond how to manipulate the steering wheel, pedals, shift, and, ideally, turn signal. Maintenance means filling up the gas and other fluids. Most people don't do more than the gas themselves.
People get trained to use an OS the same way.
You're saying every driver should also be a mechanic.
And no, it's NOT your job to do it for free. But Microsoft does it for pay. And people are willing to pay.
What people are NOT willing to do is go to what looks like a mechanic and be handed a manual and told RTFM.
Someone has to do the work. It doesn't have to be you, but it does have to be someone.
That's what this thread is about.
@bluestarultor There is no one to one mapping between cars and computers, so your mapping is your interpretation.
"You are saying that..."
I am saying that average computer user should understand fundamental parts like files, folders, installing stuff, simple maintenance. Not overly complex stuff. Not something that would be hard for a person to learn if it was part of their usage in school.
Like, I don't know much about car repair, but anything that is needed on a regular "day to day" usage, I need to know.
"But Microsoft does it for pay."
Not really, it is equally complex there and people are now in a position where they can barely leave their browser and need everything "automated" in cloud hosted software. People can barely use Windows.
And, no, we don't want to pay, so we sell ourself instead.
"By your logic" and "your saying" - I just want knowledge to avoid tech-oppression to be part of fundamental education.
I guess I am asking too much.
@Linux_in_a_Bit -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit At least over here in Germany, there are dozens of dedicated Linux User Groups as well as most Hackerspaces offering public meetings and sometimes online communities. Many of these groups welcome guests and are usually happy to help with issues or at least know where additional help is available. I would assume other countries have a similar community. They’re definitely worth a try.
https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/List_of_Hacker_Spaces (worldswide map)
https://www.linux-magazin.de/heft-abo/linux-user-groups/ (German, partly outdated) -
@bluestarultor There is no one to one mapping between cars and computers, so your mapping is your interpretation.
"You are saying that..."
I am saying that average computer user should understand fundamental parts like files, folders, installing stuff, simple maintenance. Not overly complex stuff. Not something that would be hard for a person to learn if it was part of their usage in school.
Like, I don't know much about car repair, but anything that is needed on a regular "day to day" usage, I need to know.
"But Microsoft does it for pay."
Not really, it is equally complex there and people are now in a position where they can barely leave their browser and need everything "automated" in cloud hosted software. People can barely use Windows.
And, no, we don't want to pay, so we sell ourself instead.
"By your logic" and "your saying" - I just want knowledge to avoid tech-oppression to be part of fundamental education.
I guess I am asking too much.
@Linux_in_a_Bit@lettosprey @Linux_in_a_Bit When it comes to files, folders, installation, I agree with you. Those are basic operating skills for a PC. The problem is that Millennials are the only generation who got any education in that and kids have iPads for school rather than a computer lab now. It's been that way for like a decade. They are operating on phones their whole lives.
We take files and folders for granted. We also take doorknobs for granted, but without knowing what it was, would you think to twist it? That's where they are.
That's not your problem or their fault, but what are their options? Who's going to teach them? Going back to cars, if they've done nothing but hop a train their whole life and now they need to drive a car, who's going to do Driver's Ed? Because the schools said, "welp, cars exist now, so all the kids will grow up knowing how to drive them!" And then proceeded to give them all train vouchers.
It doesn't have to be you, but someone has to teach them.
