What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
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@Linux_in_a_Bit Another common thing I've encountered is feeling like people aren't really listening to you or aren't willing to take the time to understand the situation before they start throwing stuff at you.
This is sometimes how people recommend Linux itself, as a solution to a problem in a situation where switching to Linux would either be unfeasible or where that'd cause a lot more headache than simply finding a workaround for now and look into switching to linux at a later date when you're not actively trying to solve a problem.
A lot of these issues, I feel like, come from an inability a lot of people have to admit they don't know something. That's why they feel the need to make it out like you're the one wrong for asking the question, or try and steer them towards something you do have an expertise in even if that thing isn't actually helpful in the situation.
No reasonable person is gonna think less if you just admit you don't know. "I don't know, but I'll try looking into it" is a lot better than bullshitting some answer or deflecting the question. And when it comes to computers in particular, I'm pretty convinced there are only two kinds of people: people who don't know what they are doing at least half the time and people who are lying.
@Owlor Semi-related: I have chosen what companies to do business with *literally* because someone at the other end of the phone call was willing to say "I don't know, let me check with a colleague".
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
I have said it before in places, but one of my big motivations for when I write something up on my web site is those times when I, having used Linux as a primary desktop OS for a quarter century, can't easily find an answer to something I want to do.
*Because that happens!*
I even make mistakes from time to time.
And I try to channel that energy when others ask for help. And even when I don't have an answer, I try to be helpful in helping the person *find* an answer.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit There are more than one side to this. Consider how you ask the question?
I have experienced
Questions asked in a "please just do it for me" fashion.
Question asked with a "this is just too complicated! Why is linux so hard!!!" (when really, it is equally complicated on Windows, just done differently)If you ask a question and "people get mad", there could possibly be something in how you ask the question?
People get upset and frustrated because they have to invest a little time in figuring out how things work differently, and get mad because they don't get the answer in a "follow these simple step" fashioned, served instantly.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit I would love to help folk with Linux, but nobody I know in person cares to switch.
@nieuemma Most people don't, and to justify not switching, they make up stuff like "linux users are too angry and their answers are too geeky so unless they get friendlier, I am not switching!", but it mostly boils down to not wanting to switch and just needing a reason to keep justify using big tech products.
Like people who make an effort to avoid it should be there to do the job for them, for free.
@Linux_in_a_Bit -
Definitely.
Meanwhile most of the questions normal users have will be – politely – answered by any LLM of choice.
It’s the challenge for the human IT people to outmatch this.;)@_RyekDarkener_ Justify using something made by theft and draining our resources because people that use a product are not willing to tell you how to do things, unpaid...
Quite a few of us are very willing to teach people how to use linux, but we are not techsupport ready to fix a problem, like most seem to want.
@Linux_in_a_Bit -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit Standardization and documentation
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@malte @Slacker @Kancept On the one hand:
You deserve to be appreciated when offering help to a 'noob', & their frustration does not make it okay for them to be rude. You don't need to put up with abuse.
On the other hand:
"I won't help you b/c you were too frustrated by your problem to adhere to my expectations, & I did not have the patience to tolerate incivility which I knew was not directed at me" doesn't seem like a viable solution.
Thoughts?
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@brouhaha @Linux_in_a_Bit
"Saying RTFM in a smug and condescending way benefits no one."True. I was raised in the Old Culture, in which it was a Mortal Sin to ask a question if the answer could conceivably be found in any existing documentation. Greybeards, some of whom had written that documentation, used this belief to dismiss newcomers. Some, like Ulrich Drepper and Linus Torvalds, used it to abuse others as supplemental pay. RTFM will be tough to get past.
@drdirtbag @brouhaha @Linux_in_a_Bit 100%
I feel like there should be a series of infographics on "How to actually help & encourage new Linux users" that includes "phrases & responses to avoid at all times".
Lots of well-meaning but poorly-equipped (& rarely trained) tech support, out there.
🧑
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit
exactly. And also in Cases, wäre it is not even a mistake. When asking 'how can I solve $minor_Detail_issue in $programm ?'
the most common reply will be ' $programm is shit, use $oldbutgold_terminalsolution-i-tried-before for that!' -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
Yep. This is why my linux laptop is sitting in its box. You ask a question and get either snark or are inundated with techno-gobbledegook with is unintelligible to people who've only used windows for decades.
If I can't run my client's preferred software on it or get some kind of windows emulator to actually work, it's useless.
So far no help has actually been helpful.
And external hardware like pen tablets etc needs to be plug & play.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit Wonderful. Exactly. I have been on Linux for almost 20 years and still things happen and I do not understand the "simple" instructions that honestly are in a language that I never learned. When I was in school we saw the "computer" in a room with a controlled environment and we learned to mark punch cards. I enjoy my little laptop - lets me into the Mastodon club! - but if something stops?? Sadly the "help" even from people who want to be helpful is often still beyond my understanding. Fortunately Linux (Ubuntu now Debian) is really well done. Hardly ever have any issues.
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@drdirtbag @Linux_in_a_Bit
Saying RTFM is perhaps reasonable when coherent, well organized documentation exists. That was true of some commercial operating systems, and even arguably BSD. When I first started using BSD, in 1984, I had a printed set of manuals that was fairly good. Documentation for Windows, MacOS, and Linux is far less complete, coherent, or organized, so a new user, told RTFM, can not really be expected to find useful information.
(Also, enshittification of search results.) -
@_RyekDarkener_ Justify using something made by theft and draining our resources because people that use a product are not willing to tell you how to do things, unpaid...
Quite a few of us are very willing to teach people how to use linux, but we are not techsupport ready to fix a problem, like most seem to want.
@Linux_in_a_BitYou have misunderstood the essential point. Support forums are necessary and highly valued. Support forums share their knowledge and generally provide assistance free of charge on a voluntary basis. Using these gifts for LLMs is – as long as this kind of support is also free – no stealing imho.
However a compensation for fair use is in order. And should be requested. Then there is a win-win situation.
AI doesn’t steal. People do. -
@_RyekDarkener_ Justify using something made by theft and draining our resources because people that use a product are not willing to tell you how to do things, unpaid...
Quite a few of us are very willing to teach people how to use linux, but we are not techsupport ready to fix a problem, like most seem to want.
@Linux_in_a_Bit@lettosprey @RyekDarkener@mastodon.social @Linux_in_a_Bit See, the problem with that and:
People get upset and frustrated because they have to invest a little time in figuring out how things work differently, and get mad because they don't get the answer in a "follow these simple step" fashioned, served instantly.
...is that Windows has this and the average Linux user drastically over-estimates the computer knowledge of the average user of literally anything else.
If I have an issue, I can Google it and quickly find step-by-step instructions I don't have to understand to execute. I mean I personally will, but the average person thinks turning your monitor off is turning your computer off, like heck will they take anything away from it.
You have to understand just how fundamentally, irreparably Microsoft has currently fucked Windows 11 for that kind of person to think Linux might be a better idea. That is "triangular wheels on your car" bad. In comparison, "square wheels and the mechanic screams at you" is better.
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@malte @Slacker @Kancept On the one hand:
You deserve to be appreciated when offering help to a 'noob', & their frustration does not make it okay for them to be rude. You don't need to put up with abuse.
On the other hand:
"I won't help you b/c you were too frustrated by your problem to adhere to my expectations, & I did not have the patience to tolerate incivility which I knew was not directed at me" doesn't seem like a viable solution.
Thoughts?
@Kancept @GoodNewsGreyShoes idk. to me it sounds like @Slacker is annoyed by people who get excited, which is a bit of a dick move. let people be excited, and work on your own ability to let people be excited
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You have misunderstood the essential point. Support forums are necessary and highly valued. Support forums share their knowledge and generally provide assistance free of charge on a voluntary basis. Using these gifts for LLMs is – as long as this kind of support is also free – no stealing imho.
However a compensation for fair use is in order. And should be requested. Then there is a win-win situation.
AI doesn’t steal. People do.@_RyekDarkener_ using material without permission is stealing. People built AI by strealing other peoples work.
@Linux_in_a_Bit -
@lettosprey @RyekDarkener@mastodon.social @Linux_in_a_Bit See, the problem with that and:
People get upset and frustrated because they have to invest a little time in figuring out how things work differently, and get mad because they don't get the answer in a "follow these simple step" fashioned, served instantly.
...is that Windows has this and the average Linux user drastically over-estimates the computer knowledge of the average user of literally anything else.
If I have an issue, I can Google it and quickly find step-by-step instructions I don't have to understand to execute. I mean I personally will, but the average person thinks turning your monitor off is turning your computer off, like heck will they take anything away from it.
You have to understand just how fundamentally, irreparably Microsoft has currently fucked Windows 11 for that kind of person to think Linux might be a better idea. That is "triangular wheels on your car" bad. In comparison, "square wheels and the mechanic screams at you" is better.
@bluestarultor I am installing Linux on my moms computer because Windows is just too messed up now to be acceptable, I think i know how crappy it has gotten.
The "easy to use" linux distros are, for "regular user tasks" a lot easier than Windows now, simply because there isn't all sorta crap getting in the way.
But, we are in a situation where people can be using a computer (including smartphone) for hours and hours a day and still have no idea how stuff really works. People hardly understand what a file and a folder is, because tech companies has "simplified this" away. Of course Linux is complex then.
But Linux users cannot be expected to suddenly make everything so easy that you don't need to learn basic computer skills in order to use your computer.
It is a fact that terrifies me, computers are more and more central in our life, but we learn less and less about them. Instead, we outsource the knowledge to big-tech.
People are not stupid, they just cat be bothered.
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@bluestarultor I am installing Linux on my moms computer because Windows is just too messed up now to be acceptable, I think i know how crappy it has gotten.
The "easy to use" linux distros are, for "regular user tasks" a lot easier than Windows now, simply because there isn't all sorta crap getting in the way.
But, we are in a situation where people can be using a computer (including smartphone) for hours and hours a day and still have no idea how stuff really works. People hardly understand what a file and a folder is, because tech companies has "simplified this" away. Of course Linux is complex then.
But Linux users cannot be expected to suddenly make everything so easy that you don't need to learn basic computer skills in order to use your computer.
It is a fact that terrifies me, computers are more and more central in our life, but we learn less and less about them. Instead, we outsource the knowledge to big-tech.
People are not stupid, they just cat be bothered.
@lettosprey I am a child of the DOS era. I was also part of the small window when schools taught computer use. You are talking to the wrong person about knowing how to use a computer. :J
Welcome to 1994. The average person has never understood how their devices worked. Because prior to those things being "simplified away," computers were... *drum roll* limited to enthusiasts, specialists, or designated operators.
Like, by your logic, everyone should know how a car works. We use them every day. But the only one in my family who ever did was my grandpa, who cut his teeth on the Model A, and they later passed him by. We have mechanics now.
That's all people are asking for: a mechanic when things are broken. The same way they want a farmer for their food, or a doctor for their sick kid, because all of these things are simply too big for the average person to bear the load of. It's not stupidity, it's being overwhelmed.
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@Kancept @GoodNewsGreyShoes idk. to me it sounds like @Slacker is annoyed by people who get excited, which is a bit of a dick move. let people be excited, and work on your own ability to let people be excited
️@malte @Kancept @Slacker I fully agree:
"New users shouldn't assume they can easily optimize this operating system that's lauded for its optimizability & being more user-friendly than it's ever been" is unrealistic.
New users aren't going to stop wanting the nice things that Veteran users keep bragging about as reasons they prefer Linux.
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@lettosprey I am a child of the DOS era. I was also part of the small window when schools taught computer use. You are talking to the wrong person about knowing how to use a computer. :J
Welcome to 1994. The average person has never understood how their devices worked. Because prior to those things being "simplified away," computers were... *drum roll* limited to enthusiasts, specialists, or designated operators.
Like, by your logic, everyone should know how a car works. We use them every day. But the only one in my family who ever did was my grandpa, who cut his teeth on the Model A, and they later passed him by. We have mechanics now.
That's all people are asking for: a mechanic when things are broken. The same way they want a farmer for their food, or a doctor for their sick kid, because all of these things are simply too big for the average person to bear the load of. It's not stupidity, it's being overwhelmed.
@bluestarultor Before I was allowed to drive a car, I needed to take theoretical course over several weeks, pass two tests, and have hours of practical training.
What was your point, exactly?
I am not saying that average computer users should know how to write software and do devops stuff, but some fundamental knowledge of how the OS works is kinda essential.
I am too old to have had computers as part of school, and now, I have to explain to people half my age that grew up with computers as part of their day and used in their education, rather simple computer stuff.
Is it really too much to expect, that a part of education is to understand some fundamental part of something that is so important for us today.
Because the alternative is to let big tech run all over us.
But that is more convenient, so this is where we at. "By your logic", well, yes, so we are not setting ourself up to be exploited.
But, it is not my job, as a linux user, to do this for free, as seem to be expected.
@Linux_in_a_Bit
