What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit Oh, shaming people into using Linux, trolling, laughing at them and being an arsehole to new users does not help?
That's certainly news for some noble knights fighting the "good cause" here.
Just be helpful and nice to each other.
If you have nothing helpful to say, don't say anything.
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@deathkitten @CedC go for it, the notion that an LLM has an internal representation of *anything* is, um, crackpot at best tbh
@deathkitten @CedC did you find those papers mate?
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit
Lots of interesting replies here - some that are encouraging, some, well, not so much. I have been wanting to take the plunge for over a year now, but have zero skills.
Now I have an old laptop which I will play with first, and if I brick it I’ll leave my pc alone. -
@Linux_in_a_Bit
Lots of interesting replies here - some that are encouraging, some, well, not so much. I have been wanting to take the plunge for over a year now, but have zero skills.
Now I have an old laptop which I will play with first, and if I brick it I’ll leave my pc alone.@ThorsdaysChild @Linux_in_a_Bit feel free to ask for help (though I dunno how efficient it'll be over mastodon
) -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit That's not my experience. I first tried Linux (Zorin
in 2014 when XP went EOL. I then tried Ubuntu Mate but settled on using plain Ubuntu (LTS) for 8 years till 2022 when I returned to Windows (10 now 11). I never saw or read any manual, but the support from the Ubuntu One community was outstanding. ItsFoss was also extremely helpful. If they ever fix the Snap package manager I might return.
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@deathkitten
You are going to make me soud like an AI fan, which is not the case, but your statement is incorrect.Yes AI is a prédiction engine, but so are we.
If you make a llm play chess, which is not what it has been trained for, we now have proof that it _does_ create an internal representation of the board and its pieces event if it is not supposed to "know" the rules.
1/2
@CedC sounded like an AI fan in your first post. Block.
People need to be able to trust each other to get and give technical help that can affect quality of living.
Trust is broken when someone in the conversation tries to promote chatbots and bullshit coding programs in lieu of the understanding, sympathy, and patience requested in the top of the thread.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit The biggest problem with getting people to use linux is people like you pre-emptively yelling at all linux users to never suggest anything or try to help.
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@deathkitten @CedC did you find those papers mate?
This is a good start:
A general-purpose language model is capable of playing at a fairly good level (>1750 Elo) by exploiting its native capabilities, as Matthieu Acher shows on his blog:
https://blog.mathieuacher.com/GPTsChessEloRatingLegalMoves/ -
This is a good start:
A general-purpose language model is capable of playing at a fairly good level (>1750 Elo) by exploiting its native capabilities, as Matthieu Acher shows on his blog:
https://blog.mathieuacher.com/GPTsChessEloRatingLegalMoves/LLMs can develop internal representations that enable forms of emergent reasoning, even if imperfect:
• Othello-GPT: the model reconstructs the state of the board without explicit supervision, see https://arxiv.org/abs/2210.13382
• Chess & LLMs (2024): GPT-4 achieves ~1700 Elo with structured prompts, see https://arxiv.org/abs/2403.15498 -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit this is a good chance for the LUGs (Linux user groups) to start a public help desk kind of thing.
There are LUGs in nearly every city all over the world (except perhaps DPRK) and in many towns. But often they are suffering from the deep niche nerd factor, discussing the ugly nitty gritty of packaging or highly specific server questions, wrapping and unwrapping docket containers, k8s, etc, stuff that a homey migrating away from MSFT doesn't (yet) really care about.
Adding a helpdesk in the "Linux for Dummies" style would be a good start. #EndOfTen is a very good example.
Ping @xtaran and friends. -
@ThorsdaysChild @Linux_in_a_Bit feel free to ask for help (though I dunno how efficient it'll be over mastodon
)@eigen Thanks, i will.
@Linux_in_a_Bit -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit
My first foray into Linux was 12 years ago. Those responses and related gatekeeping are why I never became passionate about Linux. Too many who are have become elitist twats.I like Linux. I have no intention of switching to anything else anytime soon. But if I choose an OS based on the behaviors of the fans, I'd choose Windows every time, and I hate windows.
Some Linux users make me dislike being a Linux user.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit I make it known to everyone I know that if and when they are ready to try out Linux, I am available as their on-call nerd anytime they run into trouble.
Very few takers. I did introduce some musician friends to #Zynthian and they bought one, but that's just cause it's an amazing project/product. They (musical couple) are now running Linux on one of their PCs, but they didn't need to ask for help lol
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit I would love to help folk with Linux, but nobody I know in person cares to switch.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit
None of us were born experts on Linux, or on any aspect of computing. We all had to learn it, though our individual paths varied. Perhaps some of us have forgotten how frustrating that was at times.
Saying RTFM in a smug and condescending way benefits no one.@brouhaha @Linux_in_a_Bit
"Saying RTFM in a smug and condescending way benefits no one."True. I was raised in the Old Culture, in which it was a Mortal Sin to ask a question if the answer could conceivably be found in any existing documentation. Greybeards, some of whom had written that documentation, used this belief to dismiss newcomers. Some, like Ulrich Drepper and Linus Torvalds, used it to abuse others as supplemental pay. RTFM will be tough to get past.
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@brouhaha @Linux_in_a_Bit
"Saying RTFM in a smug and condescending way benefits no one."True. I was raised in the Old Culture, in which it was a Mortal Sin to ask a question if the answer could conceivably be found in any existing documentation. Greybeards, some of whom had written that documentation, used this belief to dismiss newcomers. Some, like Ulrich Drepper and Linus Torvalds, used it to abuse others as supplemental pay. RTFM will be tough to get past.
@drdirtbag @Linux_in_a_Bit
Saying RTFM is perhaps reasonable when coherent, well organized documentation exists. That was true of some commercial operating systems, and even arguably BSD. When I first started using BSD, in 1984, I had a printed set of manuals that was fairly good. Documentation for Windows, MacOS, and Linux is far less complete, coherent, or organized, so a new user, told RTFM, can not really be expected to find useful information.
(Also, enshittification of search results.) -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit You hit the nail on the head. The problem isn't the technology, but the people.
Anyone looking for answers for Linux no longer asks in forums but resorts to any LLM. As a consequence, fewer and fewer answers will be found in forums in the future.
This also means that LLMs will have fewer sources, and therefore their answers will be even less useful in the future...
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit Why do you think Linux users should want it to be bigger? Growth is a monopolist thing. The community wrote the documentation for each distro. There is a limit to how many people who don't even try to help themselves any community. They SHOULD read the manual first. If they don't understand then people will see they've tried and help. That's part of the culture. They will be expected to 'pay that forward' as they advance too.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit I do NOT want Linux to be more accessible or popular, otherwise it will become another Windows.
Tech thrived only when it was moderately meritocratic, now it is becoming another playfield for private equity companies. -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit
Yes. Asking for help on Windows, and responses come from normal users. Ask on Linux often gets an IT pro level person, who means well, but has NO CLUE about usability. And has never looked for an easy GUI way. And will often tell you there is only an IT hack to do it. The moment you ask for a way avoiding the CLI, many lecture you on their misguided idea of usability, and why the CLI is better. Try it. Specifically ask for a GUI method, and watch the friendly, helpful demeanor change. 'Go back to Windows' even. Gatekeeping at its worst. Why do those with least interest in usability, argue about it the most?
