While we do #Denmark #Danmark #USA #Greenland #Arctic drama, don't forget the #Inuit, the people who live there
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@TCatInReality @grumble209 @eswag @Pepijn
people who don't #vote love the "lesser evil" quote by #HannahArendt
the problem:
the quote is from her 1964 essay “Personal Responsibility Under Dictatorship”
she is describing life under #fascism, where people have no real choice
it has nothing to do with choice in #democracy
nonvoters are misusing her quote
if Hannah were commenting on #USA #elections today, she would say "fuck! vote, you entitled assholes!"
(she would say it nicer than that)
@benroyce @TCatInReality @grumble209 @eswag @Pepijn
A sane voting system would resolve the misgivings about voting (e.g, ranked voting).
Most of my life I had not voted in presidential elections and thought much like the quote you refer to. I said I'd vote when I wanted to vote *for* someone, not against another.
DJT changed all that - I'll vote against pure evil any day.
But still, I'd be far more motivated to vote if I could vote my conscious (3rd party) without throwing my vote away.
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@grumble209 @benroyce @eswag @Pepijn
Yeah, Kilmar Albrego and the thousands of others with their visas revoked and deported are just delighted you care more about Palestinians than them.
And did running down Harris help the Palestinians? Of course not. So, you gave up influencing Harris for someone guaranteed to be worse.
@TCatInReality @benroyce @eswag @Pepijn You lost me at "influence Harris to help the Palestinians".
I not going to try to influence someone to not support murderers because her donors are their friends. She's already a sociopath. Not being a sociopath is table stakes for my vote in the future.
What's table stakes for your vote? Do you have a minimum amount of character where, below that level you won't vote for a candidate?
If you don't, I'm kind of sad for you. If you do, then this whole thread is a disagreement over where each of us draws our line.
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While we do #Denmark #Danmark #USA #Greenland #Arctic drama, don't forget the #Inuit, the people who live there
#AqqalukLynge, cofounder of Greenland independence party #InuitAtaqatigiit, loudly reminds the world that his homeland is a free and self-governing territory
"It’s really frustrating for us. What do you do with friends that are no longer friends? I don't know"
Whatever issues the Inuit have with #Copenhagen obviously #US #imperialism is far worse
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/greenland-threats-aqqaluk-lynge-9.7035614
1/3
As with Finland in ww 2, I expect the Greenlanders, especially the Inuit, are accomplished hunters and know the terrain.
I know what I would do should my country be invaded under those circumstances. It would not end well for someone.
#Greenland would become a snow covered
version of Afghanistan for the invaders.Not exactly advisable, mister #trump.
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@TCatInReality @benroyce @eswag @Pepijn You lost me at "influence Harris to help the Palestinians".
I not going to try to influence someone to not support murderers because her donors are their friends. She's already a sociopath. Not being a sociopath is table stakes for my vote in the future.
What's table stakes for your vote? Do you have a minimum amount of character where, below that level you won't vote for a candidate?
If you don't, I'm kind of sad for you. If you do, then this whole thread is a disagreement over where each of us draws our line.
@grumble209 @TCatInReality @eswag @Pepijn
Under Harris or Trump Gazans suffer. But they suffer less under Harris. Nevermind climate change, Trans rights, women's rights, public health, etc
What is the value of letting things get worse on all measures, simply to say you didn't have anything to do with it?
Isn't it more important to matter for the better? You can't do that until you get perfect?
So then you will never matter in this world. Do you not see the folly of your terms for engagement?
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And how many of those 'not my president' will be part of the force invading Trump's next target? Or meekly paying taxes. The Good Germans were Nazi supporters. I get the sense many Americans are pinning their hopes on the elections this year. Too little and too late.
"And I must say that I find it harder by the day to hear quotes from US citizens like "I didn't vote for him", "not my president", "not in my name" and especially: "50% of us disagree".
"Too little too late"
Do you want us to solve the problem?
Then you are for us showing up and voting yes?
If you're only referring to nonvoters, I agree. But then I say to such fools: "definitely show up this time then"
Otherwise what? Nobody show up and things get 10x worse?
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@TCatInReality @benroyce @grumble209 @eswag @Pepijn
Remember the "Genocide Joe" misinformation campaign in the last election?
Don't vote for the guy who paused arm shipments to Israel, because he's not condemning Israel enough to satisfy you! Implying that if he's not condemning Israel, he's as good as backing them.
Instead, withhold your vote, and let Trump win! That'll show everyone!
It wasn't as good as getting the Bernie Bros in a hissy fit. There are a lot of useful tools out there.
@SeanPLynch @TCatInReality @grumble209 @eswag @Pepijn
If the "genocide joe" line is from Likud troll farm (it could be from another troll farm but the point is it's manipulation) then people not voting and thereby helping to elect Trump, as Netanyahu wanted, are therefore dutifully serving Netanyahu by not voting
That's the real value of these nonvoters, and they don't see what manipulated fools they are
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@TCatInReality @benroyce @grumble209 @eswag @Pepijn
It seems mathematically and logically obvious that the only way to get from "evil" to "not evil" passes through "less evil," so the choice of voting for "less evil" over not voting is both obvious and essential.
(Of course, promoting and electing candidates who are better than the ones offered by the party establishments is also essential.)
@n1xnx @TCatInReality @benroyce @grumble209 @eswag @Pepijn
Mathematical logic
I can just subtract 5-5
I dont have to do
5-1
4-1
3-1
2-1
and 1-1 -
@benroyce And I must say that I find it harder by the day to hear quotes from US citizens like "I didn't vote for him", "not my president", "not in my name" and especially: "50% of us disagree".
I get it. And I believe people when they say that. It also doesn't mean anything to me. That's internal.
What is external, to me as a citizen of another country, is that the USA -the country, with all the history, friendship & agreements we share- is actively threatening my country with invasion & war.
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@grumble209 @TCatInReality @eswag @Pepijn
Under Harris or Trump Gazans suffer. But they suffer less under Harris. Nevermind climate change, Trans rights, women's rights, public health, etc
What is the value of letting things get worse on all measures, simply to say you didn't have anything to do with it?
Isn't it more important to matter for the better? You can't do that until you get perfect?
So then you will never matter in this world. Do you not see the folly of your terms for engagement?
@benroyce @TCatInReality @eswag @Pepijn At some point, a system gets too fucked up to heal itself. The usual analogy in engineering is trying to change the flat tire while the car keeps running down the road. To fix things, sometimes you have to make non-incremental changes.
Partisanship has crossed that line, IMHO. We've been voting - me included - for the lesser evil since forever and the situation is the worst it's been in 100 years.
It's obvious the GOP has reached the point of non-repairability. Maybe the DNC is salvageable, but I'll let you optimistic partisans to try to reform those corrupt fuckheads - since I don't write big checks, they care nothing for me, and I'm going to return the favor.
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@TCatInReality @benroyce @eswag @Pepijn I'm not waiting for a perfect candidate, I'm just rejecting awful candidates.
Harris was awful. Just because Harris wasn't *unusually *awful for the kind of tools that the DNC donors fund doesn't make her less awful.
If you can stomach voting for a worse candidate than me, fine, I guess. Maybe you can eat spicier food than me, too. Or see more rotting corpses before you puke. We're all different.
We all get to decide for ourselves how bad a candidate can be before we "nope" out. I'm not going to feel bad that you and I disagree.
@grumble209 @TCatInReality @eswag @Pepijn
But you're serving your self-regard, not reality
It's going to be Harris or trump, regardless of what you do. To not choose, and allow it to become trump, and not caring that that reality is obviously worse, but you're ok with that as long as you feel good about yourself?
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@benroyce @TCatInReality @eswag @Pepijn At some point, a system gets too fucked up to heal itself. The usual analogy in engineering is trying to change the flat tire while the car keeps running down the road. To fix things, sometimes you have to make non-incremental changes.
Partisanship has crossed that line, IMHO. We've been voting - me included - for the lesser evil since forever and the situation is the worst it's been in 100 years.
It's obvious the GOP has reached the point of non-repairability. Maybe the DNC is salvageable, but I'll let you optimistic partisans to try to reform those corrupt fuckheads - since I don't write big checks, they care nothing for me, and I'm going to return the favor.
@grumble209 @TCatInReality @eswag @Pepijn
Well that would make sense if you lived on the moon
But you live in the USA
So you falsely believe you can afford yourself nonparticipation because the consequences don't effect you? They effect you
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@grumble209 @TCatInReality @eswag @Pepijn
But you're serving your self-regard, not reality
It's going to be Harris or trump, regardless of what you do. To not choose, and allow it to become trump, and not caring that that reality is obviously worse, but you're ok with that as long as you feel good about yourself?
@benroyce @TCatInReality @eswag @Pepijn You're talking about 2024. I voted Harris. We got Trump anyway - because Harris sucked. Haha - voting for the lesser evil failed because the vast majority of voters thought Harris wasn't worth getting off the sofa to vote for.
Q: If you're not serving your self-interests when you vote, whose interests are you serving?
A: You're serving the interests of someone else; probably you're serving the self-interests of some donors. Talk about throwing away your vote! Those donors are obviously serving their self-interest and could not care less about you and your interests.
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@n1xnx @TCatInReality @benroyce @grumble209 @eswag @Pepijn
Mathematical logic
I can just subtract 5-5
I dont have to do
5-1
4-1
3-1
2-1
and 1-1@the5thColumnist @TCatInReality @benroyce @grumble209 @eswag @Pepijn
Well, if you have "not evil" as a viable voting option, the choice is still obvious...
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@TCatInReality @benroyce @grumble209 @eswag @Pepijn
It seems mathematically and logically obvious that the only way to get from "evil" to "not evil" passes through "less evil," so the choice of voting for "less evil" over not voting is both obvious and essential.
(Of course, promoting and electing candidates who are better than the ones offered by the party establishments is also essential.)
@n1xnx @benroyce @grumble209 @eswag @Pepijn
Yes, and the only way to shift a party to "less evil" and then "good" is to get engaged in it.
No one will ever change the Democratic party by refusing to support it.
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You are right. The people in #Greenland worries about the future consequences of that.
In 1968 an american B-52 crashed near Thule (now Pituffik) in Greenland and spread radioactive materials from the 4 hydrogen bombs it was carrying. Many of the people that cleaned up after that, got cancer.
And now the people of Greenland worries for a hostile takeover from US too
@andersgundelach @benroyce @phl - Scary shit indeed
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@n1xnx @TCatInReality @benroyce @grumble209 @eswag @Pepijn
Mathematical logic
I can just subtract 5-5
I dont have to do
5-1
4-1
3-1
2-1
and 1-1@the5thColumnist @n1xnx @benroyce @grumble209 @eswag @Pepijn
JFC, we are talking about national elections with millions of people (and millions of views).
You don't get to subtract 5 from 5 by yourself. You're influencing millions to make that move.
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@n1xnx @benroyce @grumble209 @eswag @Pepijn
Yes, and the only way to shift a party to "less evil" and then "good" is to get engaged in it.
No one will ever change the Democratic party by refusing to support it.
@TCatInReality @benroyce @grumble209 @eswag @Pepijn
Full agreement.However, my Democratic party support and engagement are directed toward those forces trying to reform the party; contributing to the DSCC and DLC PACs just props up the existing, failed leadership structure, so they can whistle.
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@grumble209 @TCatInReality @eswag @Pepijn
Well that would make sense if you lived on the moon
But you live in the USA
So you falsely believe you can afford yourself nonparticipation because the consequences don't effect you? They effect you
@benroyce @TCatInReality @eswag @Pepijn Weird that you believe that "not voting for a sociopath from the DNC or GOP" is the same as "non-participating". Especially when we're having this discussion on Mastodon, far far away from the mainstream social platforms because neither of us support those places. We're both participating in social media, right?
I will always vote if there's a candidate I can support. But I won't support sociopaths - there's too much at stake to vote for a mildly sociopathic candidate if there are alternatives. That's a simple rule, and I'm honestly surprised that it's considered spicy, even on Mastodon.
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@benroyce @TCatInReality @eswag @Pepijn Weird that you believe that "not voting for a sociopath from the DNC or GOP" is the same as "non-participating". Especially when we're having this discussion on Mastodon, far far away from the mainstream social platforms because neither of us support those places. We're both participating in social media, right?
I will always vote if there's a candidate I can support. But I won't support sociopaths - there's too much at stake to vote for a mildly sociopathic candidate if there are alternatives. That's a simple rule, and I'm honestly surprised that it's considered spicy, even on Mastodon.
@grumble209 @TCatInReality @eswag @Pepijn
You're using the word "sociopath" like it means "poopiehead"
And you're avoiding the point
If there is an election that doesn't effect you, but will negatively effect someone else, you won't vote and that negatively effected group can go to hell
That's entitlement
You won't act because how you feel about yourself is more important than real world effects
That's the sum total of your precious "principles": self-serving self-regard
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@SeanPLynch @TCatInReality @grumble209 @eswag @Pepijn
If the "genocide joe" line is from Likud troll farm (it could be from another troll farm but the point is it's manipulation) then people not voting and thereby helping to elect Trump, as Netanyahu wanted, are therefore dutifully serving Netanyahu by not voting
That's the real value of these nonvoters, and they don't see what manipulated fools they are
@benroyce @TCatInReality @grumble209 @eswag @Pepijn
In the USA, only about 30% to 40% of the eligible voters bother to vote. If you can make the election toxic, you can reduce that number even more.
Then you don't need 20% points of the voters to win, you might only need 13% or 14%.
A coalition of groups that always vote, like pro-life or gun rights groups will let you win with small numbers
