Jack Dorsey skipped ActivityPub, built AtProto, lost Twitter, funded Bluesky, watched it become a company with VCs and a board, said it was "repeating all the mistakes," left, and now funds Nostr.

@quillmatiq @dansup That's great! I'm glad to hear that you're having some positive interactions where people have a sense of shared goals.

What's making that work well? How do we do it better?

I hope the upcoming Fediforum conference will be another chance to have that kind of conversation.

@adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq

blacksky should build on activitypub

if they build on atproto, ok

good luck to them

but they seem to be choosing a sinking ship

@mastodonmigration @quillmatiq @dansup @thisismissem @evan I'm curious to know as well. I'm not dead-set against ATproto, and I like some of their ideas on paper, but i only really know of one public full-stack reimplementation that could exist if Bsky disappeared overnight - BlackSky. But last I read (admittedly been a minute), they're still dependent on Bsky for the plc directory, right? I'd like to be better informed if this is no longer the case, or if there are other fully independent full stack implementations!

@evan What's making it work is not acting as if a specific standard or technology is the only choice everyone has to bet on or is some ideological choice. It's about opening doors, building bridges, and seeing where we can bring people together. It's not that complicated, it's just kindness and openness.

@dansup

@benroyce @dansup very true! Also it's a firehouse with no water, content wise.

@quillmatiq @dansup I agree. Like I said, coalitions don't always share 100% the same goals and values, but we can still work together towards what we do have in common.

@baralheia @mastodonmigration @quillmatiq @dansup @evan

PLC directory is in the process of being moved to a swiss association, it's just taking time, because legal stuff always takes time.

https://docs.bsky.app/blog/plc-directory-org

The thing about AT Protocol is that you don't *need* to reimplement the entire stack to be independent. You can push people towards independently hosted PDSes, you can use non-Bluesky relays, you can build your own application and social graph. You can run your own moderation systems.

Bluesky is a tiny subset of what we can do on AT Protocol: microblogging. There's so much more happening: video streaming, blogging, science collaboration, annotating the web, links and bookmarking, E2EE messaging, source control management (git), books and pop culture reviews, Q&A services, a container registry, a package management service, music scrobbling, learning journeys, work profiles, video sharing, etc.

I've probably missed at least a few entire categories here.

ActivityPub forces you to re-implement the entire stack, AT Protocol allows you to do it progressively or reuse community infrastructure.

If you think of AT Protocol as Bluesky, then that'd be the same as thinking of ActivityPub as Mastodon. Far too many ActivityPub developers fall into that trap of "I must be compatible with mastodon" that it stifles innovation.

@evan If you agree, then I think you should be promoting and endorsing more kindness and productive criticism instead of threads like this that push people away. You have a major voice here, be a part of pushing a positive culture.

@dansup

@dansup
Are others fighting to survive or dominate ?

@quillmatiq @evan @dansup I agree!

@quillmatiq
Aren't the billionaires the ones designing the ecosystem now?

@quillmatiq @evan @dansup There are a lot of monoculture on both ecosystems, with unnecessary cruelty towards people who all want to create better alternatives to the (closed source) giants.

Every system has limitations, but it would be much more constructive to learn from each other, instead of burning bridges between communities of creators.

@alexchapman @quillmatiq @evan @dansup it happened to @HolosSocial just a week ago, that made me very sad, that the angry loud voices won.

@quillmatiq @dansup I have a major voice because I'm ride-or-die for ActivityPub. That's my role.

You and I have different roles in the social web. I think yours is really important, and I'm glad you do it, but it's not mine.

We can achieve a lot together even if we don't agree on everything.

@quillmatiq @dansup So, I'd like to give you some unsolicited advice, since you've been so generous with yours.

If you want to see more cooperation between people on the Fediverse and the ATmosphere, telling people on the Fediverse that they're bad and wrong and nasty isn't working. It may be true, but it's not effective.

@evan I'm not saying don't be ride or die for ActivityPub, I'm saying shooting strays at another ecosystem community that wants to collaborate with the protocol you're ride or die for isn't helping your case.

@dansup

@quillmatiq @dansup There are a lot of cases for Fediverse developers to support cooperation.

1. "They're like us". As you've pointed out, ATProto has evolved (almost?) beyond the control of one venture-funded startup. There is a community of third-party developers who are doing interesting things. They are more like Fediverse developers than we realize. Even if the foundations of ATProto suck (agree to disagree!), there's some cool work being done by cool people who share a lot of our values.

@benroyce It's our own fault that they didn't, though. Black people have been actively pushed out of this community.

You've probably read this by now, but here it is again.

https://logicmag.io/policy/blackness-in-the-fediverse-a-conversation-with-marcia-x/

And of course: https://privacy.thenexus.today/start-making-the-fediverse-less-toxic/

@adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq

@quillmatiq @dansup

2. "Bigger is better". Because we're bridged, more people on Bluesky and ATProto services is helpful for the Fediverse. It means more creators making cool content for Fediverse users to read and listen to and use, and it means a bigger audience for Fediverse creators to reach. Bigger networks are, generally, better. (Thanks, Metcalfe's Law!)

@stefan @adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq

zero argument

i remember reading mekka's posts about the sordid harassment, that us while folks just don't see

that's a struggle we have a duty to help with

i can see jumping to atproto as a valid response

i just fear that whole ecosystem is doomed, because of bluesky

maybe bluesky crashes, and blacksky picks up from the ashes

regardless, it's fruitful to fight the fucking reply guy bigots on mastodon, as an ethos, and with technical improvements