Jack Dorsey skipped ActivityPub, built AtProto, lost Twitter, funded Bluesky, watched it become a company with VCs and a board, said it was "repeating all the mistakes," left, and now funds Nostr.

@quillmatiq
Aren't the billionaires the ones designing the ecosystem now?

@quillmatiq @evan @dansup There are a lot of monoculture on both ecosystems, with unnecessary cruelty towards people who all want to create better alternatives to the (closed source) giants.

Every system has limitations, but it would be much more constructive to learn from each other, instead of burning bridges between communities of creators.

@alexchapman @quillmatiq @evan @dansup it happened to @HolosSocial just a week ago, that made me very sad, that the angry loud voices won.

@quillmatiq @dansup I have a major voice because I'm ride-or-die for ActivityPub. That's my role.

You and I have different roles in the social web. I think yours is really important, and I'm glad you do it, but it's not mine.

We can achieve a lot together even if we don't agree on everything.

@quillmatiq @dansup So, I'd like to give you some unsolicited advice, since you've been so generous with yours.

If you want to see more cooperation between people on the Fediverse and the ATmosphere, telling people on the Fediverse that they're bad and wrong and nasty isn't working. It may be true, but it's not effective.

@evan I'm not saying don't be ride or die for ActivityPub, I'm saying shooting strays at another ecosystem community that wants to collaborate with the protocol you're ride or die for isn't helping your case.

@dansup

@quillmatiq @dansup There are a lot of cases for Fediverse developers to support cooperation.

1. "They're like us". As you've pointed out, ATProto has evolved (almost?) beyond the control of one venture-funded startup. There is a community of third-party developers who are doing interesting things. They are more like Fediverse developers than we realize. Even if the foundations of ATProto suck (agree to disagree!), there's some cool work being done by cool people who share a lot of our values.

@benroyce It's our own fault that they didn't, though. Black people have been actively pushed out of this community.

You've probably read this by now, but here it is again.

https://logicmag.io/policy/blackness-in-the-fediverse-a-conversation-with-marcia-x/

And of course: https://privacy.thenexus.today/start-making-the-fediverse-less-toxic/

@adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq

@quillmatiq @dansup

2. "Bigger is better". Because we're bridged, more people on Bluesky and ATProto services is helpful for the Fediverse. It means more creators making cool content for Fediverse users to read and listen to and use, and it means a bigger audience for Fediverse creators to reach. Bigger networks are, generally, better. (Thanks, Metcalfe's Law!)

@stefan @adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq

zero argument

i remember reading mekka's posts about the sordid harassment, that us while folks just don't see

that's a struggle we have a duty to help with

i can see jumping to atproto as a valid response

i just fear that whole ecosystem is doomed, because of bluesky

maybe bluesky crashes, and blacksky picks up from the ashes

regardless, it's fruitful to fight the fucking reply guy bigots on mastodon, as an ethos, and with technical improvements

@quillmatiq @dansup

3. "Exchange of ideas". There are some really interesting things for us to learn from each other in the different protocol communities. I think the client-first, dapp-style development happening in the ATProto community is a *great* architecture for us to adopt in the Fediverse. You mentioned long-form text standards between FEP-b2b8 and standard.site -- another great opportunity for some mutual learning.

@evan I called out the culture here because this post exemplifies it. Taking my statement out of context from the broader thread here is unfair.

@dansup

@benroyce Absolutely!

But I'm just not seeing this as being important enough to the development of Mastodon in particular.

When people called out the strong opposition to quote posts as racist, given that the sort of call-and-response style of conversation has been so popular on Black Twitter, I thought this was reaching a bit.

But now we're looking at the most requested feature, the ability to disable replies, which many agree would help with the harassment particularly marginalized voices receive on here, and again, there is so much pushback, as well from the overall community here.

Starting to see a pattern.

@adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq

@benroyce And yes, we all know there are technical challenges making that happen, but given this was requested back in 2018, it tells you all you need to know about priorities.

@adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq

@quillmatiq @dansup

4. "Window of opportunity". This is a more complex one, but it is compelling. Basically, there is a non-zero chance that Bluesky's leadership team changes in the next few years, or that their strategy changes. (This has happened with other social networks like Twitter when the advertising business model was adopted.) They may at some point try to claw back the value that's been generated with the current open protocol, open source model. Hopefully not, but you never know!

@stefan @adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq

i opposed quote posts. i've never used them

even on twitter i never used them

i always thought of them "i'm going to repackage someone else's thoughts" (whether in support or to troll) as inauthentic. i always find replying to be more honest

nevertheless, people like them. and they did put controls on them

@stefan @adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq

as for reply guy bullshit:

i think that disabling replies is the wrong approach

i think that the ability to delete replies is superior

why should black people force themselves to not get replies and thus be isolated because of the harassment they receive? it puts the burden on the victim of harassment to change their habits. no. we need to directly fight the reply guy harassment instead

@benroyce

Definitely did not mean to imply that all opposition was rooted in racism, in case it came across that way!

And there were, again, technical challenges in making that work, some that are still being resolved.

And the ability to disable replies, the way I look at it, is more useful for locking your post in case things get out of hand.

I've had, on two occasions, my post attract pretty vile harassment. One of them was some pro-trans news, the other one, more recent, just generally about harassment in the fediverse.

It would've helped a lot to lock replies while I went ahead and blocked some of the servers, wait a bit for things to cool off, and open the replies back up.

@adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq

@benroyce Not sure if this is how everyone would use this feature, but that is one example.

It's more about having the tools to defend yourself while mods and admins can take action.

@adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq

@benroyce But I do agree with your larger point.

Having self-defense tools is not a fix for the reasons why they're needed. The culture here needs to vastly improve.

Until then, either people will have the tools, or go to Bluesky, where they have them, and may not need them as much.

@adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq