@ebassi Just recently I got an issue from a user on KDE who has Reduced Motion (or similar) enabled there but our GTK app on Flatpak doesn't inherit it from KDE, only (the old option) from GNOME.
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@ebassi @GerryT It was understandable back when apps implemented the other half of the protocol. Namely unselecting text once they lose ownership of PRIMARY.
Once apps started to keep showing selected text without owning PRIMARY, the model broke down. And I'm not sure the people asking for middle click paste would even want this part to change.
Thanks @jamesh for your reply. I don't understand the technology behind this feature. I am just using it.
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@uriel it *is* configurable already: the whole thing is deciding whether to turn it off by default or not.
@ebassi I think it is not configurable for the end user at the moment. To add it in Gnome Setting panel would be something helpful, if you go further with the plan to deactivate it.
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@uriel that, or even something inside the system settings themselves
Then I shut up. My Gen Z colleagues have already bestowed upon me the glorious title of "Der Musolini," merely because I have the audacity to dismiss such existential crises with observations like "your mouse is perfectly capable of surviving this ordeal."
Besides, I doubt they even KNOW what "Der Musolini" refers to:
https://youtu.be/wrtvEwitEDs?si=LDJ3oAqb1tILRuAn
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@GerryT you didn't bother checking what we're actually doing, before launching yourself into a tirade?
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gsettings-desktop-schemas/-/merge_requests/119
The setting exists already, and it can be toggled in the CLI and using apps like Tweaks and Refine. The discussion in the merge request is: 1. disable by default and 2. add the toggle somewhere that's easy to find
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@GerryT you didn't bother checking what we're actually doing, before launching yourself into a tirade?
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gsettings-desktop-schemas/-/merge_requests/119
The setting exists already, and it can be toggled in the CLI and using apps like Tweaks and Refine. The discussion in the merge request is: 1. disable by default and 2. add the toggle somewhere that's easy to find
@ebassi I checked the Gnome settings and it is not there.
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@GerryT you didn't bother checking what we're actually doing, before launching yourself into a tirade?
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gsettings-desktop-schemas/-/merge_requests/119
The setting exists already, and it can be toggled in the CLI and using apps like Tweaks and Refine. The discussion in the merge request is: 1. disable by default and 2. add the toggle somewhere that's easy to find
@ebassi Discussion is not tirade. There is no reasonable reason to deactivate it by default. No one has given a compelling reason, why to do so. People are actively using this feature, as you can see in the comments of all news sites that reported on this. There are good reasons to keep this practical and useful feature as default. Please reconsider your opinion on that.
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@GerryT @ebassi selections are the inter-app data transfer mechanism of X11. They are used to implement the clipboard, middle click paste, and drag and drop.
An application can request ownership of a selection, which will cause the previous owner to be notified it has lost ownership. It advertises that the data is available in one or more formats (e.g. plain text, images, html, etc).
Other applications can check the advertised formats and request that the selection be converted to one of them. The selection owner then sends the data in that format to the requesting app.
The way middle click paste worked was that an app would request the PRIMARY selection when the user selected something, and other apps would convert this selection when middle clicking.
The other part of the system was that if an app lost ownership of PRIMARY, it was expected to unselect whatever the user had selected previously. If they don't do this part, then the user can't tell what text would be pasted by the middle mouse button.
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@ebassi closely related to “You can’t change the defaults, they’ve been this way forever. Time means things are perfect. Also, I, of course, don’t use the defaults. I’m a power user who changes everything because the defaults aren’t usable.”
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@ebassi The worst thing is that Telemetry can definitely be privacy friendly ( I like the way KDE does it ) It's just people's ignorance showing.
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Let's assume that this feature is useful for 50% and not useful for the other 50%. How can we satisfy both needs? Something like a gsetting is no solution. I have not idea how to do something like this.
You just click on a button. This is how. I am pretty sure you are strong enough to survive the effort.
CC: @ebassi@mastodon.social
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Let's assume that this feature is useful for 50% and not useful for the other 50%. How can we satisfy both needs? Something like a gsetting is no solution. I have not idea how to do something like this.
You just click on a button. This is how. I am pretty sure you are strong enough to survive the effort.
CC: @ebassi@mastodon.socialThanks @uriel for your reply. I am discussing about a useful feature, nothing more, and insults are the wrong way.
It is about usability. I am able to click a button which is there in the Gnome settings, but there is none. You can expect from an ordinary user to install any tweaks or gsetting stuff.
However, does it make sense to disable a practical, useful and in fact used feature. No, it does not. It is counter-productive to usability.
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I highly repect the people working on Gnome, that's why I use it.
One of two is true.However, in this case, not one provide any form of evidence that this feature is not useful or not used, and no evidence that an unexpected number of people are confused by this feature.
This is what adults call "making a decision". And again, you're arguing about ONE mouse click. Do you realize how MUCH LONGER this argument has taken compared to the time it takes to click, do you?
CC: @ebassi@mastodon.social
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I highly repect the people working on Gnome, that's why I use it.
One of two is true.However, in this case, not one provide any form of evidence that this feature is not useful or not used, and no evidence that an unexpected number of people are confused by this feature.
This is what adults call "making a decision". And again, you're arguing about ONE mouse click. Do you realize how MUCH LONGER this argument has taken compared to the time it takes to click, do you?
CC: @ebassi@mastodon.socialThanks @uriel, I am not talking about a mouse click. I am concerned with Gnome. I am a user for a long time. I point to a potential mistake to disable this feature, as it is a strength, not a weakness to have it by default.
Adults do take decisions, when they have a point and - in the best case - evidence. There is no telemetry (as @ebassi pointed out), so an educated guess needs to be the basis. I am giving some evidence that this educated-guess-based decision might be wrong.
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@ebassi Discussion is not tirade. There is no reasonable reason to deactivate it by default. No one has given a compelling reason, why to do so. People are actively using this feature, as you can see in the comments of all news sites that reported on this. There are good reasons to keep this practical and useful feature as default. Please reconsider your opinion on that.
@GerryT@mastodon.social @ebassi@mastodon.social
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gsettings-desktop-schemas/-/merge_requests/119#note_2644725
My 2¢ (as input for the design team, as someone who's not a designer)
If we assume the Linux desktop has 4% market share, and assume the highly improbable fact that all of those 4% know how to use middle click paste and prefer it over the alternative autoscrolling, that's still 96% of users that are used to environments where autoscrolling is available and middle click paste doesn't exist
So we should default middle click paste to off. However it should be a setting, since it has been a feature that I'm certain many of our users have ingrained into the workflows. I can pretty much guarantee that Red Hat will get support requests about this if we turn the setting off without an easy way to turn it back on
Having a UI for this setting also gives us a convenient place to explain how the feature works, so the user can learn about it naturally
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Thanks @uriel, I am not talking about a mouse click. I am concerned with Gnome. I am a user for a long time. I point to a potential mistake to disable this feature, as it is a strength, not a weakness to have it by default.
Adults do take decisions, when they have a point and - in the best case - evidence. There is no telemetry (as @ebassi pointed out), so an educated guess needs to be the basis. I am giving some evidence that this educated-guess-based decision might be wrong.
Thanks @uriel@keinpfusch.net, I am not talking about a mouse click.
You realize this is exactly what the discussion is about, right?I point to a potential mistake to disable this feature, as it is a strength, not a weakness to have it by default.
Look, I've read a --developer-- of Gnome, saying you can configure it with a click. He even posted screenshot.
It is not --disabled-- is just configurable.
The first time I installed Linux I had to specify the horizontal frequency of the DAC in my graphical card, and now you tell me one click is "disabled"?
Ok, right. Let me ask first: do you have both arms, and both hands? Second, all your fingers are ok? If you are fingers-challenged, then you are right.? . I am giving some evidence that this educated-guess-based decision might be wrong.
Nope. What I see is, you assume 50% true and 50% false, just because you have no numbers. And you do it in front of a mathematician. And maybe other matematicians are also looking. Do you know how delicate and sensitive we are, to this kind of "educated guess"? I feel bad, already. OMG! Someone calls an ambulance!
I suggest you do NOT pick "bookmaker" as your next career. Assuming 50%/50% may not, how to say, be the most "educated" way to do it.
CC: @ebassi@mastodon.social
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@ebassi @GerryT Just because you dislike a feature doesn’t mean that it’s complete trash. Countless folk rely on this essential feature. I use this *hundreds* of times a day. It’s incredibly useful for folks who don’t (or can’t) use a keyboard for everything.
The more serious issue however, is the attitude taken. Insulting and degrading people who rely on a feature you dislike is an absolutely unacceptable way to treat fellow humans.
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Thanks @uriel@keinpfusch.net, I am not talking about a mouse click.
You realize this is exactly what the discussion is about, right?I point to a potential mistake to disable this feature, as it is a strength, not a weakness to have it by default.
Look, I've read a --developer-- of Gnome, saying you can configure it with a click. He even posted screenshot.
It is not --disabled-- is just configurable.
The first time I installed Linux I had to specify the horizontal frequency of the DAC in my graphical card, and now you tell me one click is "disabled"?
Ok, right. Let me ask first: do you have both arms, and both hands? Second, all your fingers are ok? If you are fingers-challenged, then you are right.? . I am giving some evidence that this educated-guess-based decision might be wrong.
Nope. What I see is, you assume 50% true and 50% false, just because you have no numbers. And you do it in front of a mathematician. And maybe other matematicians are also looking. Do you know how delicate and sensitive we are, to this kind of "educated guess"? I feel bad, already. OMG! Someone calls an ambulance!
I suggest you do NOT pick "bookmaker" as your next career. Assuming 50%/50% may not, how to say, be the most "educated" way to do it.
CC: @ebassi@mastodon.socialHi @uriel , you really diverge from the topic. I have given substantiated response, which you did not read or did not respond to.
About 50% / 50%. I made a hypothetical situation as basis for discussion. My honest opinion is that it is something like 98% PRO, 2% CON this feature for all users that ever willingly/accidental discovered this feature.
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Hi @uriel , you really diverge from the topic. I have given substantiated response, which you did not read or did not respond to.
About 50% / 50%. I made a hypothetical situation as basis for discussion. My honest opinion is that it is something like 98% PRO, 2% CON this feature for all users that ever willingly/accidental discovered this feature.
Hi @uriel@keinpfusch.net , you really diverge from the topic
no. We have a developer who is telling you is configurable with a single click, and he even took screenshots. You substantiated nothing. Or, well, you tried to substantiate using this 50% / 50% assumption, just because you have no data. This is not "base for discussion", 'cause is just WRONG. "I don't know" is not "50% true". Is not "a base for discussion": is just bovine output.About 50% / 50%. I made a hypothetical situation as basis for discussion
Again this? Everything is hypothetical for you is 50% / 50%?My honest opinion is that it is something like 98% PRO, 2% CON this feature for all users that ever willingly/accidental discovered this feature.
this is like, you know, just your opinion, man.
CC: @ebassi@mastodon.social
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Hi @uriel@keinpfusch.net , you really diverge from the topic
no. We have a developer who is telling you is configurable with a single click, and he even took screenshots. You substantiated nothing. Or, well, you tried to substantiate using this 50% / 50% assumption, just because you have no data. This is not "base for discussion", 'cause is just WRONG. "I don't know" is not "50% true". Is not "a base for discussion": is just bovine output.About 50% / 50%. I made a hypothetical situation as basis for discussion
Again this? Everything is hypothetical for you is 50% / 50%?My honest opinion is that it is something like 98% PRO, 2% CON this feature for all users that ever willingly/accidental discovered this feature.
this is like, you know, just your opinion, man.
CC: @ebassi@mastodon.social@uriel Your reply shows that you did not read/comprehend my responses.
As said before, it is not about a mouse click to activate/deactivate the feature. It is about a not substantiated - and potentially wrong - decision that has a negative impact on many users and on the default usability of Gnome.
