I only noticed quite recently that there's a magic word that you can put at the beginning of Fedi comments that will significantly reduce the number of silly disagreements you have here.
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I only noticed quite recently that there's a magic word that you can put at the beginning of Fedi comments that will significantly reduce the number of silly disagreements you have here. Noticing this, and using the word intentionally, has made my experiences so much calmer.
The word is "yes".
Or "yep", or "so true", or "I agree", or "absolutely", or any other affirmative. The point is, you are making clear that you hear and agree with the parent post/comment, you just want to add a little more to it.
Yes!
I have sometimes read through what I was about to post in someone's thread and checked myself. I would add 'agreed' or 'yes,' in front of the rest of my comment and it's like a magic trick for keeping the misunderstandings to a minimum.
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@inpc yes, I see that you disagree; this is because your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.
/ref /j@Tattie I can’t argue because it’s true.
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@Tattie I can’t argue because it’s true.
@inpc despite our disagreements I'm glad we had this discussion; we've both learnt so much.
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I only noticed quite recently that there's a magic word that you can put at the beginning of Fedi comments that will significantly reduce the number of silly disagreements you have here. Noticing this, and using the word intentionally, has made my experiences so much calmer.
The word is "yes".
Or "yep", or "so true", or "I agree", or "absolutely", or any other affirmative. The point is, you are making clear that you hear and agree with the parent post/comment, you just want to add a little more to it.
@Tattie Tina Fey wrote an amazing essay about the power of "Yes, and" In improv ... and life.
https://kicp-workshops.uchicago.edu/eo2014/pdf/Tina-Feys-rules-of-improv.pdf
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Especially where you don't know the person you're responding to, and especially where you're culturally dissimilar to them, I really urge you: come in with that 'yes', first.
@Tattie yes! And it's actually two words if you want to add something.
"Yes, and". never ever ever ever "yes, but." because that but just makes every yes in front of it kaputt.
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I only noticed quite recently that there's a magic word that you can put at the beginning of Fedi comments that will significantly reduce the number of silly disagreements you have here. Noticing this, and using the word intentionally, has made my experiences so much calmer.
The word is "yes".
Or "yep", or "so true", or "I agree", or "absolutely", or any other affirmative. The point is, you are making clear that you hear and agree with the parent post/comment, you just want to add a little more to it.
@Tattie Yesss! I noticed the same!
A very long story but if you wanna hear an even wilder trick in that same spirit? I dunno if it's as effective in writing as it is verbally but an absolutely magical mad science phrase is:
"Yeah! That's just like how ..."
but you say it to break someone out of programmed beliefs. Examples and why I think it happens....
Someone at my work was talking in a Xenophobic way about his coworkers. When a natural lull in the convo happened I replied 'Yeah! That's just like how they tell people to come here the 'right way' but then they fire all the people who do that process so nobody can'. At the time I was being sarcastic, ready for an argument, and instead to my surprise the dude agreed with me, and 5 mins in I just kept going and the guy yes-and with me away from Xenophobia toward being mad at his company for taking advantage of people. I thought it was a fluke but curious I tried it again on a 'racist uncle' type. I thought surely last time it only worked because the guy was only a coworker in a public setting trying to get along. Let's see what happens with someone who knows me and it's at the privacy of home.
Uncle says propoganda talking point that he clearly parroted from somewhere. I nod and said "yeah that's just like how..." and said something that refuted it. And I could see him literally flinch, like hear the cpu and gpu of his brain overclock trying to process the agreeable contradiction, then agree with me, and I again managed to hijack the conversation away from the propoganda toward reason and compassion.
My theory is when people say something that they expect pushback on, if your reaction is cloaked in faux agreement, they let the guard walls down because they think that you both heard and agreed with them ... which allows them to hear and process your next words on their own merit rather than as attacks that must be countered.
It takes a little skill to execute or their walls will pop back up. You have to be able to say your refutations without frustration and while always pretending that you agree with what they're saying in turn. This part can be especially difficult, they're gonna say some very hateful beliefs at first because they think they're talking with someone 'safe', but the payoff is worth it because you can steer the person away from hateful thinking and actually deprogram them.
That guy at work? After repeats of this kind of interaction one day out of the blue he came up to me and said 'i wanted to thank you for the conversations youve been having with me. It really helped me see that I had some pretty messed up views and Im doing better now.' Not sarcastic, he noticably changed for the better.
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Especially where you don't know the person you're responding to, and especially where you're culturally dissimilar to them, I really urge you: come in with that 'yes', first.
@Tattie Oo! I like this! I’ve made the mistake of not clarifying that I’m offering friendly extensions of a point multiple times, and I writhe in discomfort when I’m misconstrued. I plan to adopt this practice.
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I only noticed quite recently that there's a magic word that you can put at the beginning of Fedi comments that will significantly reduce the number of silly disagreements you have here. Noticing this, and using the word intentionally, has made my experiences so much calmer.
The word is "yes".
Or "yep", or "so true", or "I agree", or "absolutely", or any other affirmative. The point is, you are making clear that you hear and agree with the parent post/comment, you just want to add a little more to it.
@Tattie yeah, I developed this habit without any particular intent, but I think it does make a difference. (Look, I just did it, and I almost didn't notice
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Tone just doesn't work great on the ol' internet, and so many times what was intended as a "yes, and" is interpreted as a desire to quibble.
How many times have you seen comments like "that's what I was saying!
"?A lot of us here have oppressions where we're really used to both being spoken over and misconstrued. A lot of us have blind spots where we don't see how we could be perceived that way.
@Tattie That "yes and..." script works for me, when I'm sure or nearly sure what they meant. Otherwise, I resort to or start with "Agreed, if you meant (interpretation I think likely). If you meant something else, I may also agree but can't say conclusively." And tangentially, when I find myself writing "Disagree if you mean...", I check what I'm about to write for a strawman.
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@Tattie yes! And it's actually two words if you want to add something.
"Yes, and". never ever ever ever "yes, but." because that but just makes every yes in front of it kaputt.
@sibylle I get what you're saying here, because nobody likes to see a "yes, but". However, the reality is we won't always agree with everything we see online, and sometimes we do feel criticism is called for.
In my thread the other day I highlighted the importance of being able to both offer and take criticism with kindness. That's often difficult, and it's something I'm very definitely still working on myself.
The "yes" in "yes, but" is not invalidated by the "but". The "yes" says "I've heard you". It says "I understand where you're coming from". It sees the other person and emphasises that while you think they are partially mistaken, you do not think them bad.
Will it prevent arguments? Not necessarily! You're still criticising, and the ball is then in the other person's court to either be open to that, politely disagree, or be angered by it. With luck, tho, it may shift the odds more towards the former outcome(s).
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@Tattie Yesss! I noticed the same!
A very long story but if you wanna hear an even wilder trick in that same spirit? I dunno if it's as effective in writing as it is verbally but an absolutely magical mad science phrase is:
"Yeah! That's just like how ..."
but you say it to break someone out of programmed beliefs. Examples and why I think it happens....
Someone at my work was talking in a Xenophobic way about his coworkers. When a natural lull in the convo happened I replied 'Yeah! That's just like how they tell people to come here the 'right way' but then they fire all the people who do that process so nobody can'. At the time I was being sarcastic, ready for an argument, and instead to my surprise the dude agreed with me, and 5 mins in I just kept going and the guy yes-and with me away from Xenophobia toward being mad at his company for taking advantage of people. I thought it was a fluke but curious I tried it again on a 'racist uncle' type. I thought surely last time it only worked because the guy was only a coworker in a public setting trying to get along. Let's see what happens with someone who knows me and it's at the privacy of home.
Uncle says propoganda talking point that he clearly parroted from somewhere. I nod and said "yeah that's just like how..." and said something that refuted it. And I could see him literally flinch, like hear the cpu and gpu of his brain overclock trying to process the agreeable contradiction, then agree with me, and I again managed to hijack the conversation away from the propoganda toward reason and compassion.
My theory is when people say something that they expect pushback on, if your reaction is cloaked in faux agreement, they let the guard walls down because they think that you both heard and agreed with them ... which allows them to hear and process your next words on their own merit rather than as attacks that must be countered.
It takes a little skill to execute or their walls will pop back up. You have to be able to say your refutations without frustration and while always pretending that you agree with what they're saying in turn. This part can be especially difficult, they're gonna say some very hateful beliefs at first because they think they're talking with someone 'safe', but the payoff is worth it because you can steer the person away from hateful thinking and actually deprogram them.
That guy at work? After repeats of this kind of interaction one day out of the blue he came up to me and said 'i wanted to thank you for the conversations youve been having with me. It really helped me see that I had some pretty messed up views and Im doing better now.' Not sarcastic, he noticably changed for the better.
@growfediverse whoah. My gut reaction at first was "no, wait, that's invalidating", and then I read further and understood how you were indeed using it to subtly invalidate and undermine problematic statements, and... that's some rhetorical witchcraft right there. I might try this out myself, if I dare.
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@Tattie That "yes and..." script works for me, when I'm sure or nearly sure what they meant. Otherwise, I resort to or start with "Agreed, if you meant (interpretation I think likely). If you meant something else, I may also agree but can't say conclusively." And tangentially, when I find myself writing "Disagree if you mean...", I check what I'm about to write for a strawman.
@pauamma yeah, asking for clarification is so powerful. Multiple times here I've written an angry reply, then deleted it and asked instead if I'm understanding them correctly... and I haven't.
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@growfediverse whoah. My gut reaction at first was "no, wait, that's invalidating", and then I read further and understood how you were indeed using it to subtly invalidate and undermine problematic statements, and... that's some rhetorical witchcraft right there. I might try this out myself, if I dare.
@Tattie @growfediverse That's so great!
I'm really uncomfortable whenever people start conversations around strong biased beliefs that are clearly meant to serve emotional regulation functions, and I usually try to come with anecdotes that they can't morally use that bias on, but your strategy sounds so much more useful
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@Tattie Yesss! I noticed the same!
A very long story but if you wanna hear an even wilder trick in that same spirit? I dunno if it's as effective in writing as it is verbally but an absolutely magical mad science phrase is:
"Yeah! That's just like how ..."
but you say it to break someone out of programmed beliefs. Examples and why I think it happens....
Someone at my work was talking in a Xenophobic way about his coworkers. When a natural lull in the convo happened I replied 'Yeah! That's just like how they tell people to come here the 'right way' but then they fire all the people who do that process so nobody can'. At the time I was being sarcastic, ready for an argument, and instead to my surprise the dude agreed with me, and 5 mins in I just kept going and the guy yes-and with me away from Xenophobia toward being mad at his company for taking advantage of people. I thought it was a fluke but curious I tried it again on a 'racist uncle' type. I thought surely last time it only worked because the guy was only a coworker in a public setting trying to get along. Let's see what happens with someone who knows me and it's at the privacy of home.
Uncle says propoganda talking point that he clearly parroted from somewhere. I nod and said "yeah that's just like how..." and said something that refuted it. And I could see him literally flinch, like hear the cpu and gpu of his brain overclock trying to process the agreeable contradiction, then agree with me, and I again managed to hijack the conversation away from the propoganda toward reason and compassion.
My theory is when people say something that they expect pushback on, if your reaction is cloaked in faux agreement, they let the guard walls down because they think that you both heard and agreed with them ... which allows them to hear and process your next words on their own merit rather than as attacks that must be countered.
It takes a little skill to execute or their walls will pop back up. You have to be able to say your refutations without frustration and while always pretending that you agree with what they're saying in turn. This part can be especially difficult, they're gonna say some very hateful beliefs at first because they think they're talking with someone 'safe', but the payoff is worth it because you can steer the person away from hateful thinking and actually deprogram them.
That guy at work? After repeats of this kind of interaction one day out of the blue he came up to me and said 'i wanted to thank you for the conversations youve been having with me. It really helped me see that I had some pretty messed up views and Im doing better now.' Not sarcastic, he noticably changed for the better.
@growfediverse @Tattie another thing that sometimes works is asking interested questions about details. So when I was asked if, at my college, they did that awful Critical Race THeory stuff, I asked why they were concerned. Oh, they didn't want their dear granddaughter to be ashamed of being white.
I informed them that I had seen a whole unit on Jim Crow in Atlanta and how people couldn't get jobs, and then were arrested because it was illegal to not have a job, and then prisoners had to work for the companies that wouldn't *pay* people to do the work... and they were like 'yes! they need to know that! I learned about that, too!" I suggested that their sources for the CRT might callthose lessons CRT and they should think about what those folks were saying.
I don't think I undid the infusion of propaganda, but ... I was pleasantly surprised at how well it worked. -
I only noticed quite recently that there's a magic word that you can put at the beginning of Fedi comments that will significantly reduce the number of silly disagreements you have here. Noticing this, and using the word intentionally, has made my experiences so much calmer.
The word is "yes".
Or "yep", or "so true", or "I agree", or "absolutely", or any other affirmative. The point is, you are making clear that you hear and agree with the parent post/comment, you just want to add a little more to it.
@Tattie in comedy improv there's a kind of rule about this. if you're collaborating, you never "no, but"; you always "yes, and"…
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I only noticed quite recently that there's a magic word that you can put at the beginning of Fedi comments that will significantly reduce the number of silly disagreements you have here. Noticing this, and using the word intentionally, has made my experiences so much calmer.
The word is "yes".
Or "yep", or "so true", or "I agree", or "absolutely", or any other affirmative. The point is, you are making clear that you hear and agree with the parent post/comment, you just want to add a little more to it.
@Tattie yeah definitely. we've noticed this as well. it is not a thing we can take for granted as understood.
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@Tattie yeah definitely. we've noticed this as well. it is not a thing we can take for granted as understood.
@ireneista (nice demonstration :-P)
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I only noticed quite recently that there's a magic word that you can put at the beginning of Fedi comments that will significantly reduce the number of silly disagreements you have here. Noticing this, and using the word intentionally, has made my experiences so much calmer.
The word is "yes".
Or "yep", or "so true", or "I agree", or "absolutely", or any other affirmative. The point is, you are making clear that you hear and agree with the parent post/comment, you just want to add a little more to it.
I would also say that this can be a big relationship improvement too, especially if either or both of you is sensitive, prickly, or has trauma issues.
Spouse and I have both been working on this, and find that it can help avert a lot of near-arguments over nothing.
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@Tattie Yesss! I noticed the same!
A very long story but if you wanna hear an even wilder trick in that same spirit? I dunno if it's as effective in writing as it is verbally but an absolutely magical mad science phrase is:
"Yeah! That's just like how ..."
but you say it to break someone out of programmed beliefs. Examples and why I think it happens....
Someone at my work was talking in a Xenophobic way about his coworkers. When a natural lull in the convo happened I replied 'Yeah! That's just like how they tell people to come here the 'right way' but then they fire all the people who do that process so nobody can'. At the time I was being sarcastic, ready for an argument, and instead to my surprise the dude agreed with me, and 5 mins in I just kept going and the guy yes-and with me away from Xenophobia toward being mad at his company for taking advantage of people. I thought it was a fluke but curious I tried it again on a 'racist uncle' type. I thought surely last time it only worked because the guy was only a coworker in a public setting trying to get along. Let's see what happens with someone who knows me and it's at the privacy of home.
Uncle says propoganda talking point that he clearly parroted from somewhere. I nod and said "yeah that's just like how..." and said something that refuted it. And I could see him literally flinch, like hear the cpu and gpu of his brain overclock trying to process the agreeable contradiction, then agree with me, and I again managed to hijack the conversation away from the propoganda toward reason and compassion.
My theory is when people say something that they expect pushback on, if your reaction is cloaked in faux agreement, they let the guard walls down because they think that you both heard and agreed with them ... which allows them to hear and process your next words on their own merit rather than as attacks that must be countered.
It takes a little skill to execute or their walls will pop back up. You have to be able to say your refutations without frustration and while always pretending that you agree with what they're saying in turn. This part can be especially difficult, they're gonna say some very hateful beliefs at first because they think they're talking with someone 'safe', but the payoff is worth it because you can steer the person away from hateful thinking and actually deprogram them.
That guy at work? After repeats of this kind of interaction one day out of the blue he came up to me and said 'i wanted to thank you for the conversations youve been having with me. It really helped me see that I had some pretty messed up views and Im doing better now.' Not sarcastic, he noticably changed for the better.
@growfediverse @Tattie
Wow, this is fucking clever
I think another reason why this works is that it allows them to flip their opinion (based on your arguments) *without having to admit they were wrong* - not even implicitly, because they assume you just misunderstood them in a way that makes more sense.
Allows them to save their face -
I would also say that this can be a big relationship improvement too, especially if either or both of you is sensitive, prickly, or has trauma issues.
Spouse and I have both been working on this, and find that it can help avert a lot of near-arguments over nothing.
@CliftonR good addition, thanks!
