Wanted: Advice from CS teachers

davidames@social.linux.pizza

@futurebird have a look at some of the stuff Phill Bagge wrote about Learnt Helplessness https://philbagge.blogspot.com/2015/02/eight-steps-to-promote-problem-solving.html?m=1 and ways to work around it. I remember him doing lots of related work on it about 10 years ago.

bumblefish@mastodon.scot

@futurebird I work closely with a CS teacher snd I am a language teacher and just this past Friday we had a conversation about this exact phenomenon, which we both experience. I think because they can use their first language 'perfectly' and I think because their devices work 'perfectly' they think it should be easy to do right the first time and panic when they can't. They don't know what 'perfect' looks like in math so maybe they're more patient with it. 1/2

futurebird@sauropods.win

My students aren't lazy, but they *can* be a little perfectionist: scared to take risks or sit with not having the answer right away.

They are really upset when their code won't run... but staying calm and *systematically* looking for the cause of the problem, knowing that if you just work through the tree of possible causes you will find it is not something they are good at.

I think I need to teach this.

Maybe I will give them some broken code and we will find the errors together.

bumblefish@mastodon.scot

@futurebird Part of it is the Instagram effect where they see all this 'effortless perfection' and get super frustrated when they hit a mistake, give up before even trying anything.

jenesuispasgoth@pouet.chapril.org

@futurebird i have freshmen with the same behavior. I think the immediate feedback of the computer is a double edged sword. I don't know about your students, but mine don't even read carefully what the error message is (not even talking about the fact that the errors are written in English, not French ). All they see is "I did like the teacher and it's not working. Therefore the computer must be right."

wakame@tech.lgbt

@futurebird
I know this from people I taught programming.

And I think the main problem is that the computer is judging you. In a way.

This can come in two forms:
a) The program fails to run, shows you an error, etc.
b) The IDE adds an error or warning to a line saying: This is wrong.

So there is "objective proof" right there on the screen that you "are a failure". This is not some other person saying it, this is a piece of technology.

This is also something I hate from a usability/user experience perspective.

The computer doesn't say: "Sorry, I don't understand what you mean with that line."
It says: "This line can not be processed because the user is dumb."

(Not quite, overemphasizing.)

When taking about critique or blame, there is this typical antipattern: "Everybody uses a fork."

No, they don't. I use a fork, I want you to use a fork, but instead of saying that, I invoke a mystical "everybody".

flisty@mstdn.social

@futurebird maybe reiterate at the start of the demo, and even put up a short statement on the wall so you can point at it rather than answer! Should drum it in quickly

futurebird@sauropods.win

So Your Code Won't Run

1. There *is* an error in your code. It's probably just a typo. You can find it by looking for it in a calm, systematic way.

2. The error will make sense. It's not random. The computer does not "just hate you"

3. Read the error message. The error message *tries* to help you, but it's just a computer so YOUR HUMAN INTELLIGENCE may be needed to find the real source of error.

4. Every programmer makes errors. Great programmers can find and fix them.

1/

abramkedge@beige.party

@futurebird

> Maybe I will give them some broken code and we will find the errors together.

I think this is an excellent idea!

jenesuispasgoth@pouet.chapril.org

@futurebird no great insight to be honest. If I was explaining something I tell them to first listen to what I have to say, and later read carefully the error message. Recently I've witnessed students sometimes misread severely what to write (they confuse upper case I's and lower case l's), but mostly because they don't even try to make sense of what they're writing: they're just copying without thinking.

rosymaths@mathstodon.xyz

@futurebird Maybe some direct instruction troubleshooting lessons?

Distribute code broken in specific ways and show them how to tell which problem is showing up?

The calling out is definitely contageous, I recognise that. Can you structure in class troubleshooting time as you go - perhaps each kid has a visual token so you can see at a glance who needs help and who can give it? Something like a card with different colours front and back for /?

phronetic@hachyderm.io

@futurebird Not a teacher, but that sounds great.

Learning what error messages are and what they can tell you is so important. It's so different to many other subjects where you don't get that kind of information when something goes wrong, plus they will have grown up using computers of various kinds where an error message really is just a cryptic string of words that they can't do anything with.

futurebird@sauropods.win

Things to Try:
* look for typos
* look at what the error message indicates.

If these don't work consider reverting your last changes to the last working version of your code. Then try making the changes again, but be more careful.

If you can't revert the changes, start removing bits of the code systematically. Remove the things you think might cause the error and run the code again. Isolate the change or code that causes the problem.

You can be a great programmer.

2/2

rogerbw@discordian.social

@futurebird So Your Code Won't Run: great! Errors like this that stop it running completely are much easier to track down than errors that just give you the wrong answer. Or give you the wrong answer _sometimes_.

wakame@tech.lgbt

@futurebird

I think this meme captures a point I am trying to make very nicely.

johannes_lehmann@fediscience.org

@futurebird
Maybe it could help if you give the explanation you just gave at the beginning of the class - even with a little example of an error they common encounter (e.g. path wrong or typo)? I think the idea that how to understand and solve problems (errors) is what you want to teach is not obvious when people think about coding but also reassuring. And emphasising what works for you (and why) - e.g. ask questions when I make my rounds - could also make students feel more comfortable to say what works for them.

I’ve only ever taught university students, so I wouldn’t know if this works for school age kids. But I have felt flustered myself when attending programming workshops even after a decade of programming semi-regularly - maybe indeed because there is the fear of falling behind during the lessons.

roknrol@beige.party

@wakame I think that's what made me the most comfortable as a programmer (and likely autistic) -there's no judgement.

Two plus two doesn't ever equal five, so if the answer is five, clearly it's something that *I've* done wrong and not just some asshole pretending to not understand what I meant when I was using "plain language".

@futurebird

bottled_o_taki@blackqueer.life

@futurebird unlike math, when writing code you will get almost instant feedback. the code editor could complain, the compiler could say no, etc... so more to get frustrated with.

ive mostly taught highschool to college students and it really doesnt get better. the impatience will always be there. however I have noticed that giving students tools or guides such as a "troubleshooting framework" does a lot. if you notice similar patterns in their questions or errors, this can help build that framework.

You could also just throw the computers out the window and just write pseudocode on paper and do dry running. My highschool compsci teacher did this to help sharpen our problem solving skills

futurebird@sauropods.win

@wakame

This is helpful for me. I had a hard time understanding why one student was upset, almost to the point of tears (they are very sensitive) that the error message said "error on line 32" but, really the problem was the way they originally named the variable.

"Why couldn't it just say the error was on line 4? I tried everything I could to fix line 32. 🥺 "

My sweet child... it's just not that smart, not like you.

wakame@tech.lgbt

@futurebird

[Remark: I am not a teacher, but I taught/coached some people 1-on-1.]

Working with a computer is not like working with a human.

A computer can't be "wrong". Not in a human sense. It's just a machine.

So if your program works, then reality and physics and so on validate your work.
You have made your will manifest outside of your head, independent of judgement or opinion of others.
Part of you has become immortal.

If it doesn't work, then there is nobody to console you, nobody you can blame for not understanding you.
What you did is objectively wrong.

I think the second thing deals a rather unique blow to your psyche.
You can't blame your building materials, or other people, or anything else. The blame is yours and yours alone.

Of course you can "correct" your mistake, fix your bugs and so on.
But I still think this is a large piece of humble pie you have to digest first.

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Wanted: Advice from CS teachers