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  3. About Bluesky and federation: Edit: There might be some mistakes, and my information could be outdated, but the point still stands - Bluesky wasn't built on 100% federation from the start.

About Bluesky and federation: Edit: There might be some mistakes, and my information could be outdated, but the point still stands - Bluesky wasn't built on 100% federation from the start.

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decentralizationselfhostingselfhostedmastodonfediverseblueskyservers
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  • rolle@mementomori.socialR rolle@mementomori.social

    About Bluesky and federation:
    Edit: There might be some mistakes, and my information could be outdated, but the point still stands - Bluesky wasn't built on 100% federation from the start.

    I've been wondering about Bluesky's decentralization again. I can't think of any reason why I'd want to self-host Bluesky in its current form. I cannot 100% self host "my own Bluesky".

    Their main selling points for building their own protocol were easier migration and better discoverability, but right now there's no simple way to migrate my Bluesky account to my own instance. And hosting the centralized parts yourself isn't really possible, or if it were, not affordable, they haven't made that feasible, by design, it seems.

    Even if you self-host a PDS, Bluesky's Relay only indexes up to 10 accounts from it. You can run more, but they won't federate, the central infrastructure decides what gets seen. They control this (source: https://docs.bsky.app/blog/self-host-federation#:~:text=For%20a%20smooth%20transition%20into,for%20everyone%20in%20the%20ecosystem.). You can self-host a PDS (Personal Data Server), but you still depend on Bluesky's centralized Relay and AppView. There's no production-ready alternative infrastructure from what I gather.

    It feels like I'd be renting a room in a hotel that someone else is running anyway, when I want my own hotel.

    If Mastodon gGmbH vanishes tomorrow, my instance keeps running and federating with everyone else. If Bluesky PBC vanishes, the ecosystem would need to scramble to stand up replacement infrastructure that doesn't really exist yet.

    ATProto keeps getting evaluated on its promises while other systems get evaluated on their merits. The "portability" selling point depends on infrastructure that isn't mature enough to actually catch you if Bluesky falls.

    I trust W3C, the builders and fathers of the World Wide Web, ActivityPub and the Fediverse.

    #Decentralization #SelfHosting #SelfHosted #Mastodon #Fediverse #Bluesky #Servers

    doktorzjivago@mastodonsweden.seD This user is from outside of this forum
    doktorzjivago@mastodonsweden.seD This user is from outside of this forum
    doktorzjivago@mastodonsweden.se
    schrieb zuletzt editiert von
    #4

    @rolle Very well put. And in addition, the service itself, I think, has a serious risk of being endangered if the current American administration sees it as a threat. Also, they seem to soon run out of money. Lots of 🚩🚩🚩

    kallekn@mastodonsweden.seK 1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
    0
    • rolle@mementomori.socialR rolle@mementomori.social

      About Bluesky and federation:
      Edit: There might be some mistakes, and my information could be outdated, but the point still stands - Bluesky wasn't built on 100% federation from the start.

      I've been wondering about Bluesky's decentralization again. I can't think of any reason why I'd want to self-host Bluesky in its current form. I cannot 100% self host "my own Bluesky".

      Their main selling points for building their own protocol were easier migration and better discoverability, but right now there's no simple way to migrate my Bluesky account to my own instance. And hosting the centralized parts yourself isn't really possible, or if it were, not affordable, they haven't made that feasible, by design, it seems.

      Even if you self-host a PDS, Bluesky's Relay only indexes up to 10 accounts from it. You can run more, but they won't federate, the central infrastructure decides what gets seen. They control this (source: https://docs.bsky.app/blog/self-host-federation#:~:text=For%20a%20smooth%20transition%20into,for%20everyone%20in%20the%20ecosystem.). You can self-host a PDS (Personal Data Server), but you still depend on Bluesky's centralized Relay and AppView. There's no production-ready alternative infrastructure from what I gather.

      It feels like I'd be renting a room in a hotel that someone else is running anyway, when I want my own hotel.

      If Mastodon gGmbH vanishes tomorrow, my instance keeps running and federating with everyone else. If Bluesky PBC vanishes, the ecosystem would need to scramble to stand up replacement infrastructure that doesn't really exist yet.

      ATProto keeps getting evaluated on its promises while other systems get evaluated on their merits. The "portability" selling point depends on infrastructure that isn't mature enough to actually catch you if Bluesky falls.

      I trust W3C, the builders and fathers of the World Wide Web, ActivityPub and the Fediverse.

      #Decentralization #SelfHosting #SelfHosted #Mastodon #Fediverse #Bluesky #Servers

      collectifission@greennuclear.onlineC This user is from outside of this forum
      collectifission@greennuclear.onlineC This user is from outside of this forum
      collectifission@greennuclear.online
      schrieb zuletzt editiert von
      #5

      @rolle This neatly sums up why, every time a BS fan was talking about federation, I just didn't get it. Now I understand they were only pretending to talk about federation, or perhaps worse, talk about some twisted definition of 'federation'. That's why I simply didn't understand them. They were talking about something else entirely, while claiming "federation" at the same time.

      Gaslighting by design?

      1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
      0
      • rolle@mementomori.socialR rolle@mementomori.social

        About Bluesky and federation:
        Edit: There might be some mistakes, and my information could be outdated, but the point still stands - Bluesky wasn't built on 100% federation from the start.

        I've been wondering about Bluesky's decentralization again. I can't think of any reason why I'd want to self-host Bluesky in its current form. I cannot 100% self host "my own Bluesky".

        Their main selling points for building their own protocol were easier migration and better discoverability, but right now there's no simple way to migrate my Bluesky account to my own instance. And hosting the centralized parts yourself isn't really possible, or if it were, not affordable, they haven't made that feasible, by design, it seems.

        Even if you self-host a PDS, Bluesky's Relay only indexes up to 10 accounts from it. You can run more, but they won't federate, the central infrastructure decides what gets seen. They control this (source: https://docs.bsky.app/blog/self-host-federation#:~:text=For%20a%20smooth%20transition%20into,for%20everyone%20in%20the%20ecosystem.). You can self-host a PDS (Personal Data Server), but you still depend on Bluesky's centralized Relay and AppView. There's no production-ready alternative infrastructure from what I gather.

        It feels like I'd be renting a room in a hotel that someone else is running anyway, when I want my own hotel.

        If Mastodon gGmbH vanishes tomorrow, my instance keeps running and federating with everyone else. If Bluesky PBC vanishes, the ecosystem would need to scramble to stand up replacement infrastructure that doesn't really exist yet.

        ATProto keeps getting evaluated on its promises while other systems get evaluated on their merits. The "portability" selling point depends on infrastructure that isn't mature enough to actually catch you if Bluesky falls.

        I trust W3C, the builders and fathers of the World Wide Web, ActivityPub and the Fediverse.

        #Decentralization #SelfHosting #SelfHosted #Mastodon #Fediverse #Bluesky #Servers

        zotheca@mementomori.socialZ This user is from outside of this forum
        zotheca@mementomori.socialZ This user is from outside of this forum
        zotheca@mementomori.social
        schrieb zuletzt editiert von
        #6

        @rolle Blacksky has its own AppView and a Bluesky-independent way of unlocking users who have been blocked by Bluesky, for example.
        A person can host a PDS on a server of their choice, including their own, and connect to the service they prefer.

        https://bsky.app/profile/rude1.blacksky.team/post/3m4ra7cs75s2z

        https://bsky.app/profile/rude1.blacksky.team/post/3mccvziodyc2v

        https://bsky.app/profile/rude1.blacksky.team/post/3mcg5h5ef2k2z

        I can also connect to At Proto via Blacksky

        https://blacksky.community/profile/did:plc:w4xbfzo7kqfes5zb7r6qv3rw/post/3m4ra7cs75s2z

        rolle@mementomori.socialR homegrown@social.growyourown.servicesH 2 Antworten Letzte Antwort
        0
        • zotheca@mementomori.socialZ zotheca@mementomori.social

          @rolle Blacksky has its own AppView and a Bluesky-independent way of unlocking users who have been blocked by Bluesky, for example.
          A person can host a PDS on a server of their choice, including their own, and connect to the service they prefer.

          https://bsky.app/profile/rude1.blacksky.team/post/3m4ra7cs75s2z

          https://bsky.app/profile/rude1.blacksky.team/post/3mccvziodyc2v

          https://bsky.app/profile/rude1.blacksky.team/post/3mcg5h5ef2k2z

          I can also connect to At Proto via Blacksky

          https://blacksky.community/profile/did:plc:w4xbfzo7kqfes5zb7r6qv3rw/post/3m4ra7cs75s2z

          rolle@mementomori.socialR This user is from outside of this forum
          rolle@mementomori.socialR This user is from outside of this forum
          rolle@mementomori.social
          schrieb zuletzt editiert von
          #7

          RE: https://toot.cafe/@thereisnocat/115906352914274869

          @zotheca So I've heard. But there are challenges.

          https://mementomori.social/@thereisnocat@toot.cafe/115906353041503398

          zotheca@mementomori.socialZ 1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
          0
          • rolle@mementomori.socialR rolle@mementomori.social

            RE: https://toot.cafe/@thereisnocat/115906352914274869

            @zotheca So I've heard. But there are challenges.

            https://mementomori.social/@thereisnocat@toot.cafe/115906353041503398

            zotheca@mementomori.socialZ This user is from outside of this forum
            zotheca@mementomori.socialZ This user is from outside of this forum
            zotheca@mementomori.social
            schrieb zuletzt editiert von
            #8

            @rolle Yes, I would say the biggest challenge is the amount of data that is transferred there, which makes it hardly suitable for a home server. A Hubzilla installation can be set up as PHP on the side. The system does not require every user to have their own relay at home.

            The question is, at what number of offerings is decentralization achieved? Are Bluesky and Blacksky sufficient, or do we also need Eurosky and Northernsky, and so on? And is it necessary for decentralization that everyone can host at home...

            Basically, the statement often made in the Fediverse that there is only one AppView and that Bluesky can therefore simply pull the plug is, in my view, incorrect and, for many people, more a matter of populism.

            Currently, if I am not satisfied with Bluesky's moderation of applications, I can easily switch to Blacksky.

            rolle@mementomori.socialR 1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
            0
            • doktorzjivago@mastodonsweden.seD doktorzjivago@mastodonsweden.se

              @rolle Very well put. And in addition, the service itself, I think, has a serious risk of being endangered if the current American administration sees it as a threat. Also, they seem to soon run out of money. Lots of 🚩🚩🚩

              kallekn@mastodonsweden.seK This user is from outside of this forum
              kallekn@mastodonsweden.seK This user is from outside of this forum
              kallekn@mastodonsweden.se
              schrieb zuletzt editiert von
              #9

              @doktorzjivago @rolle Let's hope they do run out of money...

              🙄

              1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
              0
              • rolle@mementomori.socialR rolle@mementomori.social

                About Bluesky and federation:
                Edit: There might be some mistakes, and my information could be outdated, but the point still stands - Bluesky wasn't built on 100% federation from the start.

                I've been wondering about Bluesky's decentralization again. I can't think of any reason why I'd want to self-host Bluesky in its current form. I cannot 100% self host "my own Bluesky".

                Their main selling points for building their own protocol were easier migration and better discoverability, but right now there's no simple way to migrate my Bluesky account to my own instance. And hosting the centralized parts yourself isn't really possible, or if it were, not affordable, they haven't made that feasible, by design, it seems.

                Even if you self-host a PDS, Bluesky's Relay only indexes up to 10 accounts from it. You can run more, but they won't federate, the central infrastructure decides what gets seen. They control this (source: https://docs.bsky.app/blog/self-host-federation#:~:text=For%20a%20smooth%20transition%20into,for%20everyone%20in%20the%20ecosystem.). You can self-host a PDS (Personal Data Server), but you still depend on Bluesky's centralized Relay and AppView. There's no production-ready alternative infrastructure from what I gather.

                It feels like I'd be renting a room in a hotel that someone else is running anyway, when I want my own hotel.

                If Mastodon gGmbH vanishes tomorrow, my instance keeps running and federating with everyone else. If Bluesky PBC vanishes, the ecosystem would need to scramble to stand up replacement infrastructure that doesn't really exist yet.

                ATProto keeps getting evaluated on its promises while other systems get evaluated on their merits. The "portability" selling point depends on infrastructure that isn't mature enough to actually catch you if Bluesky falls.

                I trust W3C, the builders and fathers of the World Wide Web, ActivityPub and the Fediverse.

                #Decentralization #SelfHosting #SelfHosted #Mastodon #Fediverse #Bluesky #Servers

                stefan@stefanbohacek.onlineS This user is from outside of this forum
                stefan@stefanbohacek.onlineS This user is from outside of this forum
                stefan@stefanbohacek.online
                schrieb zuletzt editiert von
                #10

                @rolle Well, the problem is that vast majority of people don't care about this.

                *But*, one lesson from the forkiverse should be, this is still a great selling point for community organizers. And they can bring over their people.

                1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
                0
                • rolle@mementomori.socialR rolle@mementomori.social

                  About Bluesky and federation:
                  Edit: There might be some mistakes, and my information could be outdated, but the point still stands - Bluesky wasn't built on 100% federation from the start.

                  I've been wondering about Bluesky's decentralization again. I can't think of any reason why I'd want to self-host Bluesky in its current form. I cannot 100% self host "my own Bluesky".

                  Their main selling points for building their own protocol were easier migration and better discoverability, but right now there's no simple way to migrate my Bluesky account to my own instance. And hosting the centralized parts yourself isn't really possible, or if it were, not affordable, they haven't made that feasible, by design, it seems.

                  Even if you self-host a PDS, Bluesky's Relay only indexes up to 10 accounts from it. You can run more, but they won't federate, the central infrastructure decides what gets seen. They control this (source: https://docs.bsky.app/blog/self-host-federation#:~:text=For%20a%20smooth%20transition%20into,for%20everyone%20in%20the%20ecosystem.). You can self-host a PDS (Personal Data Server), but you still depend on Bluesky's centralized Relay and AppView. There's no production-ready alternative infrastructure from what I gather.

                  It feels like I'd be renting a room in a hotel that someone else is running anyway, when I want my own hotel.

                  If Mastodon gGmbH vanishes tomorrow, my instance keeps running and federating with everyone else. If Bluesky PBC vanishes, the ecosystem would need to scramble to stand up replacement infrastructure that doesn't really exist yet.

                  ATProto keeps getting evaluated on its promises while other systems get evaluated on their merits. The "portability" selling point depends on infrastructure that isn't mature enough to actually catch you if Bluesky falls.

                  I trust W3C, the builders and fathers of the World Wide Web, ActivityPub and the Fediverse.

                  #Decentralization #SelfHosting #SelfHosted #Mastodon #Fediverse #Bluesky #Servers

                  jens@toots.nuJ This user is from outside of this forum
                  jens@toots.nuJ This user is from outside of this forum
                  jens@toots.nu
                  schrieb zuletzt editiert von
                  #11

                  @rolle

                  This is why I’m on the Fediverse, bridging with BlueSky. Because I’d be happy to federate with them, if they’d open up as standard.

                  But they don’t. They want to keep to themselves unless someone explicitly says they want to bridge to Fediverse.

                  That’s the reason I don’t really trust BlueSky.

                  Did you see the European PDS, EuroSky?

                  1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
                  0
                  • rolle@mementomori.socialR rolle@mementomori.social

                    About Bluesky and federation:
                    Edit: There might be some mistakes, and my information could be outdated, but the point still stands - Bluesky wasn't built on 100% federation from the start.

                    I've been wondering about Bluesky's decentralization again. I can't think of any reason why I'd want to self-host Bluesky in its current form. I cannot 100% self host "my own Bluesky".

                    Their main selling points for building their own protocol were easier migration and better discoverability, but right now there's no simple way to migrate my Bluesky account to my own instance. And hosting the centralized parts yourself isn't really possible, or if it were, not affordable, they haven't made that feasible, by design, it seems.

                    Even if you self-host a PDS, Bluesky's Relay only indexes up to 10 accounts from it. You can run more, but they won't federate, the central infrastructure decides what gets seen. They control this (source: https://docs.bsky.app/blog/self-host-federation#:~:text=For%20a%20smooth%20transition%20into,for%20everyone%20in%20the%20ecosystem.). You can self-host a PDS (Personal Data Server), but you still depend on Bluesky's centralized Relay and AppView. There's no production-ready alternative infrastructure from what I gather.

                    It feels like I'd be renting a room in a hotel that someone else is running anyway, when I want my own hotel.

                    If Mastodon gGmbH vanishes tomorrow, my instance keeps running and federating with everyone else. If Bluesky PBC vanishes, the ecosystem would need to scramble to stand up replacement infrastructure that doesn't really exist yet.

                    ATProto keeps getting evaluated on its promises while other systems get evaluated on their merits. The "portability" selling point depends on infrastructure that isn't mature enough to actually catch you if Bluesky falls.

                    I trust W3C, the builders and fathers of the World Wide Web, ActivityPub and the Fediverse.

                    #Decentralization #SelfHosting #SelfHosted #Mastodon #Fediverse #Bluesky #Servers

                    smattymatty@socialontario.caS This user is from outside of this forum
                    smattymatty@socialontario.caS This user is from outside of this forum
                    smattymatty@socialontario.ca
                    schrieb zuletzt editiert von
                    #12

                    @rolle

                    That's crazy. I wonder why they are trying so hard to look decentralized, when under the hood they really aren't.

                    If they truly cared about decentralization, they would have implemented the already existing ActivityPub it became a W3C recommended standard in 2018...

                    Something fishy about bluesky. Thanks for sharing, I didn't know about this!

                    rolle@mementomori.socialR 1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
                    0
                    • zotheca@mementomori.socialZ zotheca@mementomori.social

                      @rolle Yes, I would say the biggest challenge is the amount of data that is transferred there, which makes it hardly suitable for a home server. A Hubzilla installation can be set up as PHP on the side. The system does not require every user to have their own relay at home.

                      The question is, at what number of offerings is decentralization achieved? Are Bluesky and Blacksky sufficient, or do we also need Eurosky and Northernsky, and so on? And is it necessary for decentralization that everyone can host at home...

                      Basically, the statement often made in the Fediverse that there is only one AppView and that Bluesky can therefore simply pull the plug is, in my view, incorrect and, for many people, more a matter of populism.

                      Currently, if I am not satisfied with Bluesky's moderation of applications, I can easily switch to Blacksky.

                      rolle@mementomori.socialR This user is from outside of this forum
                      rolle@mementomori.socialR This user is from outside of this forum
                      rolle@mementomori.social
                      schrieb zuletzt editiert von
                      #13

                      @zotheca It's not just populism when it comes to self-hosting and independence. The amount of data in the Fediverse is huge, yet you can still host everything from a USB stick if you want to (need S3 or NAS for storage, but anyway, it's simple).

                      I see Bluesky as false marketing in many ways. Decentralization, by definition, should mean as much as possible. We all know what happens when Cloudflare or AWS goes down - that's not decentralization if only a handful of large services exist. So I completely disagree with the idea that "a few is enough".

                      zotheca@mementomori.socialZ 1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
                      0
                      • zotheca@mementomori.socialZ zotheca@mementomori.social

                        @rolle Blacksky has its own AppView and a Bluesky-independent way of unlocking users who have been blocked by Bluesky, for example.
                        A person can host a PDS on a server of their choice, including their own, and connect to the service they prefer.

                        https://bsky.app/profile/rude1.blacksky.team/post/3m4ra7cs75s2z

                        https://bsky.app/profile/rude1.blacksky.team/post/3mccvziodyc2v

                        https://bsky.app/profile/rude1.blacksky.team/post/3mcg5h5ef2k2z

                        I can also connect to At Proto via Blacksky

                        https://blacksky.community/profile/did:plc:w4xbfzo7kqfes5zb7r6qv3rw/post/3m4ra7cs75s2z

                        homegrown@social.growyourown.servicesH This user is from outside of this forum
                        homegrown@social.growyourown.servicesH This user is from outside of this forum
                        homegrown@social.growyourown.services
                        schrieb zuletzt editiert von
                        #14

                        @zotheca @rolle

                        Bluesky was able to ban Blacksky's users directly on Blacksky, it seems there's still a centralised kill switch in Bluesky's control:

                        https://plus.flux.community/p/banning-controversy-reveals-blueskys

                        zotheca@mementomori.socialZ ? 2 Antworten Letzte Antwort
                        1
                        0
                        • smattymatty@socialontario.caS smattymatty@socialontario.ca

                          @rolle

                          That's crazy. I wonder why they are trying so hard to look decentralized, when under the hood they really aren't.

                          If they truly cared about decentralization, they would have implemented the already existing ActivityPub it became a W3C recommended standard in 2018...

                          Something fishy about bluesky. Thanks for sharing, I didn't know about this!

                          rolle@mementomori.socialR This user is from outside of this forum
                          rolle@mementomori.socialR This user is from outside of this forum
                          rolle@mementomori.social
                          schrieb zuletzt editiert von
                          #15

                          @smattymatty Their problem is they wanted their own from the begin with, to control. They claim that Fediverse and ActivityPub community have been "suspicious" towards them, but also "it’d have been a difficult collaboration if we chose to use AP, especially since we weren’t willing to compromise on some of the decisions". I see it they never even wanted to try.

                          https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto/issues/255#issuecomment-1287953987

                          1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
                          0
                          • rolle@mementomori.socialR rolle@mementomori.social

                            @zotheca It's not just populism when it comes to self-hosting and independence. The amount of data in the Fediverse is huge, yet you can still host everything from a USB stick if you want to (need S3 or NAS for storage, but anyway, it's simple).

                            I see Bluesky as false marketing in many ways. Decentralization, by definition, should mean as much as possible. We all know what happens when Cloudflare or AWS goes down - that's not decentralization if only a handful of large services exist. So I completely disagree with the idea that "a few is enough".

                            zotheca@mementomori.socialZ This user is from outside of this forum
                            zotheca@mementomori.socialZ This user is from outside of this forum
                            zotheca@mementomori.social
                            schrieb zuletzt editiert von
                            #16

                            @rolle But what does decentralization mean? When I look at how many instances there are at Masto.Host or here in Germany at Hetzner or Hostinger (or a few others), it seems like pseudo-decentralization. All you need to do in Germany is block three server providers and the Fediverse will likely be dead here.

                            1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
                            0
                            • homegrown@social.growyourown.servicesH homegrown@social.growyourown.services

                              @zotheca @rolle

                              Bluesky was able to ban Blacksky's users directly on Blacksky, it seems there's still a centralised kill switch in Bluesky's control:

                              https://plus.flux.community/p/banning-controversy-reveals-blueskys

                              zotheca@mementomori.socialZ This user is from outside of this forum
                              zotheca@mementomori.socialZ This user is from outside of this forum
                              zotheca@mementomori.social
                              schrieb zuletzt editiert von
                              #17

                              @homegrown You can't argue with outdated information. The event you are referring to dates back to a time when Blacksky did not yet have an own Application(AppView). It was not a secret switch. You can check the date of the developments.

                              @rolle

                              1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
                              0
                              • rolle@mementomori.socialR rolle@mementomori.social

                                About Bluesky and federation:
                                Edit: There might be some mistakes, and my information could be outdated, but the point still stands - Bluesky wasn't built on 100% federation from the start.

                                I've been wondering about Bluesky's decentralization again. I can't think of any reason why I'd want to self-host Bluesky in its current form. I cannot 100% self host "my own Bluesky".

                                Their main selling points for building their own protocol were easier migration and better discoverability, but right now there's no simple way to migrate my Bluesky account to my own instance. And hosting the centralized parts yourself isn't really possible, or if it were, not affordable, they haven't made that feasible, by design, it seems.

                                Even if you self-host a PDS, Bluesky's Relay only indexes up to 10 accounts from it. You can run more, but they won't federate, the central infrastructure decides what gets seen. They control this (source: https://docs.bsky.app/blog/self-host-federation#:~:text=For%20a%20smooth%20transition%20into,for%20everyone%20in%20the%20ecosystem.). You can self-host a PDS (Personal Data Server), but you still depend on Bluesky's centralized Relay and AppView. There's no production-ready alternative infrastructure from what I gather.

                                It feels like I'd be renting a room in a hotel that someone else is running anyway, when I want my own hotel.

                                If Mastodon gGmbH vanishes tomorrow, my instance keeps running and federating with everyone else. If Bluesky PBC vanishes, the ecosystem would need to scramble to stand up replacement infrastructure that doesn't really exist yet.

                                ATProto keeps getting evaluated on its promises while other systems get evaluated on their merits. The "portability" selling point depends on infrastructure that isn't mature enough to actually catch you if Bluesky falls.

                                I trust W3C, the builders and fathers of the World Wide Web, ActivityPub and the Fediverse.

                                #Decentralization #SelfHosting #SelfHosted #Mastodon #Fediverse #Bluesky #Servers

                                gabboman@gabboman.xyzG This user is from outside of this forum
                                gabboman@gabboman.xyzG This user is from outside of this forum
                                gabboman@gabboman.xyz
                                schrieb zuletzt editiert von
                                #18

                                I have too many corrections on this one.
                                Pds a year ago when i got to 100 accounts I had to get in contact with someone on the team, now is higher

                                The relay and app view: have you seen appviewlite? Its quite light

                                Regarding production ready alternatives: blacksky. Seriously. Blacksky

                                The idea is different. Fedi is trains and bsky are trucks. Knowing about one doesn’t means you know the other. The architecture is too different.

                                And a lot of the times the question is “wait you dont get railed i mean use rails?”

                                If bsky llc vanished tomorrow it would be fine. Seriously

                                Its a bit late here but if you want we can keep this conversation later in a better medium than this one, this one will make both of us look like confrontational pricks

                                nobody@mastodon.acm.orgN 1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
                                0
                                • gabboman@gabboman.xyzG gabboman@gabboman.xyz

                                  I have too many corrections on this one.
                                  Pds a year ago when i got to 100 accounts I had to get in contact with someone on the team, now is higher

                                  The relay and app view: have you seen appviewlite? Its quite light

                                  Regarding production ready alternatives: blacksky. Seriously. Blacksky

                                  The idea is different. Fedi is trains and bsky are trucks. Knowing about one doesn’t means you know the other. The architecture is too different.

                                  And a lot of the times the question is “wait you dont get railed i mean use rails?”

                                  If bsky llc vanished tomorrow it would be fine. Seriously

                                  Its a bit late here but if you want we can keep this conversation later in a better medium than this one, this one will make both of us look like confrontational pricks

                                  nobody@mastodon.acm.orgN This user is from outside of this forum
                                  nobody@mastodon.acm.orgN This user is from outside of this forum
                                  nobody@mastodon.acm.org
                                  schrieb zuletzt editiert von
                                  #19

                                  @gabboman I for 1 would love to hear more. I understand that you can keep custody of your own key, but I still don't get it what is the vision for self hosting, bootstrap, and the "scaling down"...

                                  1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
                                  0
                                  • zotheca@mementomori.socialZ This user is from outside of this forum
                                    zotheca@mementomori.socialZ This user is from outside of this forum
                                    zotheca@mementomori.social
                                    schrieb zuletzt editiert von
                                    #20

                                    @irelephant

                                    1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
                                    0
                                    • rolle@mementomori.socialR rolle@mementomori.social

                                      About Bluesky and federation:
                                      Edit: There might be some mistakes, and my information could be outdated, but the point still stands - Bluesky wasn't built on 100% federation from the start.

                                      I've been wondering about Bluesky's decentralization again. I can't think of any reason why I'd want to self-host Bluesky in its current form. I cannot 100% self host "my own Bluesky".

                                      Their main selling points for building their own protocol were easier migration and better discoverability, but right now there's no simple way to migrate my Bluesky account to my own instance. And hosting the centralized parts yourself isn't really possible, or if it were, not affordable, they haven't made that feasible, by design, it seems.

                                      Even if you self-host a PDS, Bluesky's Relay only indexes up to 10 accounts from it. You can run more, but they won't federate, the central infrastructure decides what gets seen. They control this (source: https://docs.bsky.app/blog/self-host-federation#:~:text=For%20a%20smooth%20transition%20into,for%20everyone%20in%20the%20ecosystem.). You can self-host a PDS (Personal Data Server), but you still depend on Bluesky's centralized Relay and AppView. There's no production-ready alternative infrastructure from what I gather.

                                      It feels like I'd be renting a room in a hotel that someone else is running anyway, when I want my own hotel.

                                      If Mastodon gGmbH vanishes tomorrow, my instance keeps running and federating with everyone else. If Bluesky PBC vanishes, the ecosystem would need to scramble to stand up replacement infrastructure that doesn't really exist yet.

                                      ATProto keeps getting evaluated on its promises while other systems get evaluated on their merits. The "portability" selling point depends on infrastructure that isn't mature enough to actually catch you if Bluesky falls.

                                      I trust W3C, the builders and fathers of the World Wide Web, ActivityPub and the Fediverse.

                                      #Decentralization #SelfHosting #SelfHosted #Mastodon #Fediverse #Bluesky #Servers

                                      caiocgo@social.vivaldi.netC This user is from outside of this forum
                                      caiocgo@social.vivaldi.netC This user is from outside of this forum
                                      caiocgo@social.vivaldi.net
                                      schrieb zuletzt editiert von
                                      #21

                                      @rolle

                                      Bluesky is not to be trusted. It is just Twitter, but delayed.


                                      #Decentralization #SelfHosting #SelfHosted #Mastodon #Fediverse #Bluesky #Servers

                                      1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
                                      0
                                      • rolle@mementomori.socialR rolle@mementomori.social

                                        About Bluesky and federation:
                                        Edit: There might be some mistakes, and my information could be outdated, but the point still stands - Bluesky wasn't built on 100% federation from the start.

                                        I've been wondering about Bluesky's decentralization again. I can't think of any reason why I'd want to self-host Bluesky in its current form. I cannot 100% self host "my own Bluesky".

                                        Their main selling points for building their own protocol were easier migration and better discoverability, but right now there's no simple way to migrate my Bluesky account to my own instance. And hosting the centralized parts yourself isn't really possible, or if it were, not affordable, they haven't made that feasible, by design, it seems.

                                        Even if you self-host a PDS, Bluesky's Relay only indexes up to 10 accounts from it. You can run more, but they won't federate, the central infrastructure decides what gets seen. They control this (source: https://docs.bsky.app/blog/self-host-federation#:~:text=For%20a%20smooth%20transition%20into,for%20everyone%20in%20the%20ecosystem.). You can self-host a PDS (Personal Data Server), but you still depend on Bluesky's centralized Relay and AppView. There's no production-ready alternative infrastructure from what I gather.

                                        It feels like I'd be renting a room in a hotel that someone else is running anyway, when I want my own hotel.

                                        If Mastodon gGmbH vanishes tomorrow, my instance keeps running and federating with everyone else. If Bluesky PBC vanishes, the ecosystem would need to scramble to stand up replacement infrastructure that doesn't really exist yet.

                                        ATProto keeps getting evaluated on its promises while other systems get evaluated on their merits. The "portability" selling point depends on infrastructure that isn't mature enough to actually catch you if Bluesky falls.

                                        I trust W3C, the builders and fathers of the World Wide Web, ActivityPub and the Fediverse.

                                        #Decentralization #SelfHosting #SelfHosted #Mastodon #Fediverse #Bluesky #Servers

                                        hallunke23@troet.cafeH This user is from outside of this forum
                                        hallunke23@troet.cafeH This user is from outside of this forum
                                        hallunke23@troet.cafe
                                        schrieb zuletzt editiert von
                                        #22

                                        Well, I recently discovered that Bluesky got one step closer to decentralization:
                                        It is now possible to set up DIDs without depending on Bluesky's services. If you look into the AT spec, you will find that there are now two types of DIDs that can be used for Bluesky: did:plc (which can only be issued by Bluesky) and did:web which essentially consist of a domain name. So an AT user of johndoe.example.com could have a DID of did:web:johndoe.example.com.

                                        But now there are at

                                        (1/3) @rolle #Bluesky

                                        hallunke23@troet.cafeH 1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
                                        0
                                        • hallunke23@troet.cafeH hallunke23@troet.cafe

                                          Well, I recently discovered that Bluesky got one step closer to decentralization:
                                          It is now possible to set up DIDs without depending on Bluesky's services. If you look into the AT spec, you will find that there are now two types of DIDs that can be used for Bluesky: did:plc (which can only be issued by Bluesky) and did:web which essentially consist of a domain name. So an AT user of johndoe.example.com could have a DID of did:web:johndoe.example.com.

                                          But now there are at

                                          (1/3) @rolle #Bluesky

                                          hallunke23@troet.cafeH This user is from outside of this forum
                                          hallunke23@troet.cafeH This user is from outside of this forum
                                          hallunke23@troet.cafe
                                          schrieb zuletzt editiert von
                                          #23

                                          least 3 parts that remain to be done:
                                          • Alternative instances need own Relay and AppView -> should be feasable
                                          • Alternative instances need their own servers for private messages -> This is still a problem. How are you supposed to chat with someone if another instance can't find your chat server?
                                          • Bluesky still needs to adopt IPv6 -> This is also a problem. IPv4 is slowly heading for its end, and I wouldn't want to rely on IPv4 for Bluesky federation.

                                          Another issue that
                                          (2/3) @rolle #Bluesky

                                          hallunke23@troet.cafeH 1 Antwort Letzte Antwort
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