The FDA decided not to even review Moderna's mRNA flu vaccines for approval, even though the studies the FDA would be reviewing were conducted the way the FDA told Moderna to do them.
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I'm not the right person to be explaining the perverse intersection of healthcare and capitalism. The short answer is, most large companies won't do anything that loses money. In fact, in US law they are specifically prohibited from doing things that are expected to lose money.
@jeneralist @ujay68 To be fair, if they wouldn't care and do many things that loose money, they wouldn't be around very long, and then we wouldn't have (new) vaccines as well.
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@AzureArmageddon @jeneralist that really does make me wonder that if the United States ever fixed its medical system to be in line with the rest of the civilized world. Would that take away the actual impetus for medical research that has been improving the lives of people worldwide?
@LoneLocust @AzureArmageddon @jeneralist
Moderna is the beneficiary of billions in govt funding, but in the end only the shareholders have primacy. The US government does not benefit the people either.
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Some back-of-the-envelope calculations: new vaccines are generally introduced to more affluent countries first, especially for diseases that aren't immediately fatal. The market for vaccines against EBV, HSV, and VZV would be in this category.
EU: 450M people
Canada: 40M
US: 350M
Australia & NZ: 30MWithout US, the market is about 40% smaller.
@jeneralist @adipoeserPursch in terms of health care, is the US an affluent country ?
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Can Moderna sue the FDA ? If they conducted their studies the way FDA wanted them done, then it's a breach of contract by the FDA, isn't it?
@Ireland4Ever @jeneralist "contract"? Isn't this rather an administrative procedure?
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The FDA decided not to even review Moderna's mRNA flu vaccines for approval, even though the studies the FDA would be reviewing were conducted the way the FDA told Moderna to do them.
Now #Moderna expects that none of its other #mRNA #vaccines will be reviewed, and has halted studies on vaccines for EBV, HSV, and shingles.
A lot of people with herpes would be angry if they found out.
A lot of people who have family members with #MS -- now thought to be caused in part by EBV -- will be livid.
@jeneralist
It would be a real shame if people boosted this and embarrassed the Chump regime... -
The FDA decided not to even review Moderna's mRNA flu vaccines for approval, even though the studies the FDA would be reviewing were conducted the way the FDA told Moderna to do them.
Now #Moderna expects that none of its other #mRNA #vaccines will be reviewed, and has halted studies on vaccines for EBV, HSV, and shingles.
A lot of people with herpes would be angry if they found out.
A lot of people who have family members with #MS -- now thought to be caused in part by EBV -- will be livid.
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The US won't buy if the FDA won't license, regardless of where the product is developed and made
@regordane @pa27 @jeneralist just fly to Cuba or any other nearby Carribbean island to get the shot.
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@EndicottAuthor @jeneralist NOpe. They are anti-vaccine.
@geonz
No, there is a bit more to it. Moderna was the first to announce the possibility of using mRNA to build the vaccine, they announced it either just after Chump lost in 2020 or just after Chump left the white house in 2021. And then they had the audacity to lose to Pfizer to market launch, so to Chump it is very personal, which means to RFKjr it is personal. -
@jeneralist @Taco_lad the point about ROI exposes the first principle for these organisations: massive profits. They should Give the research to another company that is interested in supporting human health first and profit second.
@franksting @jeneralist @Taco_lad yes, that's because these organisations currently operate in a capitalist context. Fixing that should be on the agenda, but you can't blame them for responding to the environment they are in.
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@Ireland4Ever @jeneralist "contract"? Isn't this rather an administrative procedure?
Assumed Moderna had a contract with FDA for these studies-maybe not. Moderna may need to just relocate their vaccine studies outside of the US.
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@ariaflame @jeneralist @ujay68 We need consumer cooperatives in healthcare, not publicly traded companies. It's a massive conflict of interest.
@hosford42
Yes, but it has to be targeted cooperatives. A coop is not going to be able to afford research into novel uses of mRNA vaccines. Coops cannot afford the protein synthesizers needed to make those novel mRNA vaccines into enough doses.Now, if we instead taxed corporations / share holders profits the right way, they would be incentivized to spend the money that coops couldn't afford to spend.
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@franksting @jeneralist @Taco_lad yes, that's because these organisations currently operate in a capitalist context. Fixing that should be on the agenda, but you can't blame them for responding to the environment they are in.
@mu @jeneralist @Taco_lad i absolutely can and I absolutely am. The population of the USA is ~5% of the world population
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@jeneralist Understandable. However, it doesn’t seem impossible to me to produce, at a profit, vaccines for the world’s population minus the US population. Not a really negligible target group. I’m no industry specialist, but there might also be … let’s say … other factors behind such a decision?
@ujay68
I forget the actual number but Americans pay something like 160% more, resulting in higher profit margins, than the rest of the world. Many countries could not afford to pay US prices...Hell the US can't really afford the US prices, but we pay it anyway because we have to .
@jeneralist -
@jeneralist
It would be a real shame if people boosted this and embarrassed the Chump regime...They wouldn't be embarrassed, it's not an unintended or unwelcome outcome for them.
At this point, if someone leaked a memo that Peter Thiel has been trying all this time to bring about the end times by raising an antichrist to the presidency and instantiating the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse as US government policy, I'd barely raise an eyebrow.
The only surprising thing would be Trump hadn't boasted about it yet.
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@hosford42
Yes, but it has to be targeted cooperatives. A coop is not going to be able to afford research into novel uses of mRNA vaccines. Coops cannot afford the protein synthesizers needed to make those novel mRNA vaccines into enough doses.Now, if we instead taxed corporations / share holders profits the right way, they would be incentivized to spend the money that coops couldn't afford to spend.
@nikatjef @hosford42 @ariaflame @jeneralist @ujay68 Contrary view: the Wellcome Trust and vaccine development (eg: TB)
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The FDA decided not to even review Moderna's mRNA flu vaccines for approval, even though the studies the FDA would be reviewing were conducted the way the FDA told Moderna to do them.
Now #Moderna expects that none of its other #mRNA #vaccines will be reviewed, and has halted studies on vaccines for EBV, HSV, and shingles.
A lot of people with herpes would be angry if they found out.
A lot of people who have family members with #MS -- now thought to be caused in part by EBV -- will be livid.
@jeneralist Epstein herpes virus? Sounds about right.
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@jeneralist Well, the US doesn't need any vaccines according to its Secretary of Disease. So, what market?
@adipoeserPursch yes, that's the point the CEO was making
@jeneralist -
They 100% could apply for approval in Europe or Canada but they won't because without access to the US market their isn't enough profit for them... and companies like Moderna don't care about people, they only care about profit.
Europe, Canada, et al need to force the issue by changing patent law (at least for medical patents but honestly it would be best to cover all patents) to include a 'use it or lose it' clause. If companies don't pursue approval Government's should have the right to step in and use the companies patents to develop the drugs themselves.
@RantingCanuck @Mikal @jeneralist
I think this only be one step in how the whole pharmaceutic market works. We can do better if we manage to focus on helping people but profits. And I am not sure what role companies can and should have in this at all.
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The FDA decided not to even review Moderna's mRNA flu vaccines for approval, even though the studies the FDA would be reviewing were conducted the way the FDA told Moderna to do them.
Now #Moderna expects that none of its other #mRNA #vaccines will be reviewed, and has halted studies on vaccines for EBV, HSV, and shingles.
A lot of people with herpes would be angry if they found out.
A lot of people who have family members with #MS -- now thought to be caused in part by EBV -- will be livid.
Just wrote a blog post about this.
Apparently Prasad wanted to redo the whole thing, using high-dose flu vax as the control. This is (a) medically inappropriate for trial participants under 65, and (b) unavailable in Europe at any age.
Moderna has cancelled several vax projects, since they can no longer navigate the US approval system.
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@adipoeserPursch yes, that's the point the CEO was making
@jeneralist@jeneralist @peturdainn So why stop then? That's my point. There's still money to make – and/or lives to be saved...
100% = let's do it
60% = Hell, nay
???
