IRCv3 is shaping to be amazingly good!

@whitequark Intriguing. Any recommendations for compatible servers and clients?

If session persistence is a thing now, that feels like a real step forward for IRC (having to use a bouncer or a client running on a server somewhere is a high bar for a lot of people, especially more casual users).

@whitequark @futuresprog they've had "IRCv3 support" since inception AFAIK (I believe even freenode had it)

what they're rolling out is support for some extensions to IRCv3, in particular the `message-tags` specification which will support things like `+draft/reply` by adding a new capability to add a bunch of metadata to a message (which involves bumping the line length up 8191 bytes, allowing for just under 4K of tag data)

IRCv3's capability negotiation is such a powerful way to let the ecosystem continue to grow in a way that allows more granular specifications

@whitequark this is awesome! Which daemon are you using?

@whitequark Hm. Would the server lose the backlog and the rest of the state if it's restarted, or is it supposed to store it all now?

@kevin ergochat

IRCv3 is shaping to be amazingly good!

here's the things it offers, today, right now, on a chat server we just set up in one evening:

• you don't need a bouncer (friggin finally)
• there are moblie clients that work well
• you can see backlog when joining a channel
• you can browse chat history
• you can connect from multiple devices with one account and nickname
• if you disconnect, your nickname is still present in a channel you joined, marked as away
• you can highlight or DM people who are away and they'll see your message when they join (without crutches like MemoServ)
• there is a "last read message" marker and it is synchronized between multiple connections
• messages have identifiers (and server timestamps) and replies can be tagged with the message you're replying to
• you don't need to deal with fussy nonsense like NickServ authorization, ghosting, or such; connect with your username and password and that's it
• there are typing notifiers, if you want them
• there are message reactions, if you want them

here's the things it does not offer:

• image, video, or file uploads
• stickers
• complex onboarding tools

caveat: since IRCv3 is a true extension of IRCv2, the features listed above work if they're supported by both the server and the client. in my onboarding experience so far, people do not find it difficult to find a suitable client, but your mileage may vary. on the flipside, legacy clients will work just fine.

unexpectly, i realized that IRCv3 can completely replace Matrix rooms for my own group chat purposes, and i'm probably not going to set up any Matrix homeservers again; it's just not worth it and frankly I should instead put that effort into coming up with a file upload IRCv3 extension or something

@fruitcakesareyum @groxx keeping chat history with intermittent connectivity or machines not always powered up

@whitequark @futuresprog it doesn't really help matters the IRCv3 working group has just kinda given up on versioning the whole thing and now there's "the modern IRC protocol" at the core and the cloud of extensions

so there's no versioned document you can point at and say IRCv3.x as there was with IRCv3.1 and IRCv3.2, and I'm not sure the smaller granular extension specifications have any versioning either. it all manages to hold together nonetheless, I guess because they don't make breaking changes (because all in the extensions, the core got it very right pretty early, especially if an implementation has the combination of capabilities AND tags)

@whitequark @futuresprog they've had "IRCv3 support" since inception AFAIK (I believe even freenode had it)

what they're rolling out is support for some extensions to IRCv3, in particular the `message-tags` specification which will support things like `+draft/reply` by adding a new capability to add a bunch of metadata to a message (which involves bumping the line length up 8191 bytes, allowing for just under 4K of tag data)

IRCv3's capability negotiation is such a powerful way to let the ecosystem continue to grow in a way that allows more granular specifications

IRCv3 is shaping to be amazingly good!

here's the things it offers, today, right now, on a chat server we just set up in one evening:

• you don't need a bouncer (friggin finally)
• there are moblie clients that work well
• you can see backlog when joining a channel
• you can browse chat history
• you can connect from multiple devices with one account and nickname
• if you disconnect, your nickname is still present in a channel you joined, marked as away
• you can highlight or DM people who are away and they'll see your message when they join (without crutches like MemoServ)
• there is a "last read message" marker and it is synchronized between multiple connections
• messages have identifiers (and server timestamps) and replies can be tagged with the message you're replying to
• you don't need to deal with fussy nonsense like NickServ authorization, ghosting, or such; connect with your username and password and that's it
• there are typing notifiers, if you want them
• there are message reactions, if you want them

here's the things it does not offer:

• image, video, or file uploads
• stickers
• complex onboarding tools

caveat: since IRCv3 is a true extension of IRCv2, the features listed above work if they're supported by both the server and the client. in my onboarding experience so far, people do not find it difficult to find a suitable client, but your mileage may vary. on the flipside, legacy clients will work just fine.

unexpectly, i realized that IRCv3 can completely replace Matrix rooms for my own group chat purposes, and i'm probably not going to set up any Matrix homeservers again; it's just not worth it and frankly I should instead put that effort into coming up with a file upload IRCv3 extension or something

IRCv3 is shaping to be amazingly good!

here's the things it offers, today, right now, on a chat server we just set up in one evening:

• you don't need a bouncer (friggin finally)
• there are moblie clients that work well
• you can see backlog when joining a channel
• you can browse chat history
• you can connect from multiple devices with one account and nickname
• if you disconnect, your nickname is still present in a channel you joined, marked as away
• you can highlight or DM people who are away and they'll see your message when they join (without crutches like MemoServ)
• there is a "last read message" marker and it is synchronized between multiple connections
• messages have identifiers (and server timestamps) and replies can be tagged with the message you're replying to
• you don't need to deal with fussy nonsense like NickServ authorization, ghosting, or such; connect with your username and password and that's it
• there are typing notifiers, if you want them
• there are message reactions, if you want them

here's the things it does not offer:

• image, video, or file uploads
• stickers
• complex onboarding tools

caveat: since IRCv3 is a true extension of IRCv2, the features listed above work if they're supported by both the server and the client. in my onboarding experience so far, people do not find it difficult to find a suitable client, but your mileage may vary. on the flipside, legacy clients will work just fine.

unexpectly, i realized that IRCv3 can completely replace Matrix rooms for my own group chat purposes, and i'm probably not going to set up any Matrix homeservers again; it's just not worth it and frankly I should instead put that effort into coming up with a file upload IRCv3 extension or something

@whitequark

Feels like this should have been news from around 2000.

@whitequark I’ve found myself thinking of going back to IRC, and this gives me more reasons than I has hoped for!

Ps. I think everybody is finally using Utf-8.. please?

IRCv3 is shaping to be amazingly good!

here's the things it offers, today, right now, on a chat server we just set up in one evening:

• you don't need a bouncer (friggin finally)
• there are moblie clients that work well
• you can see backlog when joining a channel
• you can browse chat history
• you can connect from multiple devices with one account and nickname
• if you disconnect, your nickname is still present in a channel you joined, marked as away
• you can highlight or DM people who are away and they'll see your message when they join (without crutches like MemoServ)
• there is a "last read message" marker and it is synchronized between multiple connections
• messages have identifiers (and server timestamps) and replies can be tagged with the message you're replying to
• you don't need to deal with fussy nonsense like NickServ authorization, ghosting, or such; connect with your username and password and that's it
• there are typing notifiers, if you want them
• there are message reactions, if you want them

here's the things it does not offer:

• image, video, or file uploads
• stickers
• complex onboarding tools

caveat: since IRCv3 is a true extension of IRCv2, the features listed above work if they're supported by both the server and the client. in my onboarding experience so far, people do not find it difficult to find a suitable client, but your mileage may vary. on the flipside, legacy clients will work just fine.

unexpectly, i realized that IRCv3 can completely replace Matrix rooms for my own group chat purposes, and i'm probably not going to set up any Matrix homeservers again; it's just not worth it and frankly I should instead put that effort into coming up with a file upload IRCv3 extension or something

@whitequark
File uploads could probably be kludged exclusively on the client side with something like
```
START FILE UPLOAD
METADATA <metadata>
BODY <base64 file contents>
END FILE UPLOAD
```
although it would be problematic in that it would show up as spam for anyone without the client extension, and would be less efficient than a binary solution. It could work the same with image, audio, video, and stickers, since those are all just specially tagged files. Could even work for streaming (hence live audio/video calls) if the files are chunked right, maybe adding CONTINUE BELOW and CONTINUED FROM ABOVE indicators.

Of course, that would be stupid, since a 2MB file would take more characters than make up the entire LotR trilogy (~2.3M) under this encoding scheme, all of which would be shown in their raw form to any user with an incompatible client (unless IRC lets users handle this somehow). Maybe there's a reason people leave some things to the server.

I realize I have just given an oversimplified description of how XMPP handles (or maybe handled, depending on implemented XEPs) file uploads.

(please don't interpret this as me trying to fedisplain how you should implement a file upload protocol. don't implement it this way, please.)

IRCv3 is shaping to be amazingly good!

here's the things it offers, today, right now, on a chat server we just set up in one evening:

• you don't need a bouncer (friggin finally)
• there are moblie clients that work well
• you can see backlog when joining a channel
• you can browse chat history
• you can connect from multiple devices with one account and nickname
• if you disconnect, your nickname is still present in a channel you joined, marked as away
• you can highlight or DM people who are away and they'll see your message when they join (without crutches like MemoServ)
• there is a "last read message" marker and it is synchronized between multiple connections
• messages have identifiers (and server timestamps) and replies can be tagged with the message you're replying to
• you don't need to deal with fussy nonsense like NickServ authorization, ghosting, or such; connect with your username and password and that's it
• there are typing notifiers, if you want them
• there are message reactions, if you want them

here's the things it does not offer:

• image, video, or file uploads
• stickers
• complex onboarding tools

caveat: since IRCv3 is a true extension of IRCv2, the features listed above work if they're supported by both the server and the client. in my onboarding experience so far, people do not find it difficult to find a suitable client, but your mileage may vary. on the flipside, legacy clients will work just fine.

unexpectly, i realized that IRCv3 can completely replace Matrix rooms for my own group chat purposes, and i'm probably not going to set up any Matrix homeservers again; it's just not worth it and frankly I should instead put that effort into coming up with a file upload IRCv3 extension or something

IRCv3 is shaping to be amazingly good!

here's the things it offers, today, right now, on a chat server we just set up in one evening:

• you don't need a bouncer (friggin finally)
• there are moblie clients that work well
• you can see backlog when joining a channel
• you can browse chat history
• you can connect from multiple devices with one account and nickname
• if you disconnect, your nickname is still present in a channel you joined, marked as away
• you can highlight or DM people who are away and they'll see your message when they join (without crutches like MemoServ)
• there is a "last read message" marker and it is synchronized between multiple connections
• messages have identifiers (and server timestamps) and replies can be tagged with the message you're replying to
• you don't need to deal with fussy nonsense like NickServ authorization, ghosting, or such; connect with your username and password and that's it
• there are typing notifiers, if you want them
• there are message reactions, if you want them

here's the things it does not offer:

• image, video, or file uploads
• stickers
• complex onboarding tools

caveat: since IRCv3 is a true extension of IRCv2, the features listed above work if they're supported by both the server and the client. in my onboarding experience so far, people do not find it difficult to find a suitable client, but your mileage may vary. on the flipside, legacy clients will work just fine.

unexpectly, i realized that IRCv3 can completely replace Matrix rooms for my own group chat purposes, and i'm probably not going to set up any Matrix homeservers again; it's just not worth it and frankly I should instead put that effort into coming up with a file upload IRCv3 extension or something

Yeah. IRCv3 is good, unless you dont care about one of basic features of all modern instant messaging: presence.

@nyx no joking yeah