What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?

@lettosprey I am a child of the DOS era. I was also part of the small window when schools taught computer use. You are talking to the wrong person about knowing how to use a computer. :J

Welcome to 1994. The average person has never understood how their devices worked. Because prior to those things being "simplified away," computers were... *drum roll* limited to enthusiasts, specialists, or designated operators.

Like, by your logic, everyone should know how a car works. We use them every day. But the only one in my family who ever did was my grandpa, who cut his teeth on the Model A, and they later passed him by. We have mechanics now.

That's all people are asking for: a mechanic when things are broken. The same way they want a farmer for their food, or a doctor for their sick kid, because all of these things are simply too big for the average person to bear the load of. It's not stupidity, it's being overwhelmed.

@_RyekDarkener_@mastodon.social @Linux_in_a_Bit

@nieuemma Most people don't, and to justify not switching, they make up stuff like "linux users are too angry and their answers are too geeky so unless they get friendlier, I am not switching!", but it mostly boils down to not wanting to switch and just needing a reason to keep justify using big tech products.

Like people who make an effort to avoid it should be there to do the job for them, for free.
@Linux_in_a_Bit

@lettosprey @Linux_in_a_Bit I will agree that a lot of people don't want to switch, or aren't willing to put in the effort, but there are also a fair number of shitty Linux users.

When I used to use Discord, I was on a few servers to get and give help with issues people had related to Linux and there were a number of people there (both old and new to Linux) who really weren't helpful and were assholes.

@bluestarultor Before I was allowed to drive a car, I needed to take theoretical course over several weeks, pass two tests, and have hours of practical training.

What was your point, exactly?

I am not saying that average computer users should know how to write software and do devops stuff, but some fundamental knowledge of how the OS works is kinda essential.

I am too old to have had computers as part of school, and now, I have to explain to people half my age that grew up with computers as part of their day and used in their education, rather simple computer stuff.

Is it really too much to expect, that a part of education is to understand some fundamental part of something that is so important for us today.

Because the alternative is to let big tech run all over us.

But that is more convenient, so this is where we at. "By your logic", well, yes, so we are not setting ourself up to be exploited.

But, it is not my job, as a linux user, to do this for free, as seem to be expected.
@Linux_in_a_Bit

@lettosprey @Linux_in_a_Bit You have a fundamental misunderstanding. Devops is building. Nobody is asking the average driver to build a car. They are asking them to drive it.

But when it breaks and can't be driven, that's fixing it.

Building, driving, and fixing are three different things.

If an OS is a car, then people can drive it all day long without knowing anything beyond how to manipulate the steering wheel, pedals, shift, and, ideally, turn signal. Maintenance means filling up the gas and other fluids. Most people don't do more than the gas themselves.

People get trained to use an OS the same way.

You're saying every driver should also be a mechanic.

And no, it's NOT your job to do it for free. But Microsoft does it for pay. And people are willing to pay.

What people are NOT willing to do is go to what looks like a mechanic and be handed a manual and told RTFM.

Someone has to do the work. It doesn't have to be you, but it does have to be someone.

That's what this thread is about.

What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?

Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.

The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.

They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.

We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.

Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.

The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.

#Linux

@bluestarultor There is no one to one mapping between cars and computers, so your mapping is your interpretation.

"You are saying that..."

I am saying that average computer user should understand fundamental parts like files, folders, installing stuff, simple maintenance. Not overly complex stuff. Not something that would be hard for a person to learn if it was part of their usage in school.

Like, I don't know much about car repair, but anything that is needed on a regular "day to day" usage, I need to know.

"But Microsoft does it for pay."

Not really, it is equally complex there and people are now in a position where they can barely leave their browser and need everything "automated" in cloud hosted software. People can barely use Windows.

And, no, we don't want to pay, so we sell ourself instead.

"By your logic" and "your saying" - I just want knowledge to avoid tech-oppression to be part of fundamental education.

I guess I am asking too much.
@Linux_in_a_Bit

What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?

Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.

The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.

They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.

We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.

Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.

The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.

#Linux

@malte @Slacker @Kancept On the one hand:

You deserve to be appreciated when offering help to a 'noob', & their frustration does not make it okay for them to be rude. You don't need to put up with abuse.

On the other hand:

"I won't help you b/c you were too frustrated by your problem to adhere to my expectations, & I did not have the patience to tolerate incivility which I knew was not directed at me" doesn't seem like a viable solution.

Thoughts?

@Linux_in_a_Bit not true anymore.
With AI integrated in most search engine, you often get the right response from it.
One of the few benefits of AI is that it can basically customise the documentation to make it sensible to you. It becomes a kind of live documentation.

A simple how to fix … on [distro name] works 95% of the time in my experience.

@_RyekDarkener_ using material without permission is stealing. People built AI by strealing other peoples work.
@Linux_in_a_Bit

@GoodNewsGreyShoes@mastodon.art @malte@anticapitalist.party @Slacker@mastodontech.de @Kancept@infosec.exchange I totally agree with this. an important aspect of emotional maturity is being able to see someone getting frustrated at something that you like, and not taking that as frustration at you, but rather meeting them where they are and saying "I totally understand why you're frustrated. would you like some help? this was hard for me too at first but I can share what I know"

I get frustrated at any tech that I don't immediately understand because it makes me feel incredibly stupid to see others using it (seemingly) so effortlessly. and I try to show others the same understanding and respect that I would like to be shown when I feel that way

@lettosprey @Linux_in_a_Bit When it comes to files, folders, installation, I agree with you. Those are basic operating skills for a PC. The problem is that Millennials are the only generation who got any education in that and kids have iPads for school rather than a computer lab now. It's been that way for like a decade. They are operating on phones their whole lives.

We take files and folders for granted. We also take doorknobs for granted, but without knowing what it was, would you think to twist it? That's where they are.

That's not your problem or their fault, but what are their options? Who's going to teach them? Going back to cars, if they've done nothing but hop a train their whole life and now they need to drive a car, who's going to do Driver's Ed? Because the schools said, "welp, cars exist now, so all the kids will grow up knowing how to drive them!" And then proceeded to give them all train vouchers.

It doesn't have to be you, but someone has to teach them.

@bluestarultor But that was kinda the premise of the post I replied to. People don't switch to linux because linux users "are not kind and helpful enough" - and my experience - that people don't really want to switch, they just use the "linux users are not helpful enough!" to justify staying with companies they know they should really leave.

So, if we "want to beat big tech" we need to "work for free"

Our "kid" is 30 years old, still does not know how to drive a car, manages fine without it. I taught him to use computers because I realized that would be essential knowledge.

That bit paid off.

We can make our society less dependent on tech, like it was not all that long ago. But people like the convenience it gives. We could build good, publicly funded solutions, but people don't want to pay.

I don't know what the solution is, but blaming linux users for not being "helpful and friendly enough" is not the answer to anything...
@Linux_in_a_Bit

@drdirtbag @brouhaha @Linux_in_a_Bit 100%‍

I feel like there should be a series of infographics on "How to actually help & encourage new Linux users" that includes "phrases & responses to avoid at all times".

Lots of well-meaning but poorly-equipped (& rarely trained) tech support, out there.🧑‍

What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?

Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.

The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.

They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.

We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.

Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.

The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.

#Linux

@bluestarultor But that was kinda the premise of the post I replied to. People don't switch to linux because linux users "are not kind and helpful enough" - and my experience - that people don't really want to switch, they just use the "linux users are not helpful enough!" to justify staying with companies they know they should really leave.

So, if we "want to beat big tech" we need to "work for free"

Our "kid" is 30 years old, still does not know how to drive a car, manages fine without it. I taught him to use computers because I realized that would be essential knowledge.

That bit paid off.

We can make our society less dependent on tech, like it was not all that long ago. But people like the convenience it gives. We could build good, publicly funded solutions, but people don't want to pay.

I don't know what the solution is, but blaming linux users for not being "helpful and friendly enough" is not the answer to anything...
@Linux_in_a_Bit

@Linux_in_a_Bit I think this is called verbal abuse and Linux has a problem with bad management - "a fish starts stinking from the head".

RTFM means Read The Fucking Manual, which is a triple verbal abuse:
1) Ordering, which is verbal abuse (older version of Wikipedia: Verbal abuse)
2) The word "fucking", which is a curse word
3) Abusive anger. The phrase obviously conveys anger. Anger is an emotion which belongs to a situation where someone behaves unfair. But the user asking for help does not behave unfair.

Also another problem is that Linux is, in my experience, simply unreliable. When I boot up my computer, sometimes:
1) X doesn't come up, stays in text mode
2) X comes up with the screen at wrong smaller resolution and the picture is in one corner of the screen
3) Mouse doesn't work
4) Keyboard doesn't work
5) Keyboard has wrong repetition rate
6) When inserting a USB peripheral, USB hard disk disconnects and the system crashes
7) Manpages are missing important information
Fails to update between major versions with guarantee of functionality
9) System freezes to a grinding halt instead of managing the RAM resource when RAM demand from programs exceeds RAM size
10) Sound doesn't work

Also I would say 80% of solutions from Google don't work and 40% of them don't work and screw up your system and don't contain information how to reverse the changes after you did them and realized they don't work.

Asking "Have you tried Google?" is like a car mechanic asking a customer "have you tried unauthorized, possibly irreversibly damaging tampering with your engine according to the advice of a random, likely incompetent, bystander?"

@GoodNewsGreyShoes@mastodon.art @brouhaha@mastodon.social @drdirtbag@mountains.social @Linux_in_a_Bit@infosec.exchange and you know, I think a lot of us aren't even used to there BEING an available manual. I'm used to it NOW, sort of, but when I compare the manuals that come with modern devices and software ("plug in" or "reboot") compared with ones for earlier devices ("here is how to deconstruct and reconstruct each piece of the device in explicit detail, combined with part numbers and specifications for individual parts")... let's just say it took me a while to get used to the idea that the manual had any value.

@GoodNewsGreyShoes @drdirtbag @Linux_in_a_Bit @aud
I suspect most computer users today would be amazed to learn that Microsoft Word and Excel originally came with manuals. Not only that, the manuals were actually pretty good.